why do you automatically check give up when you miss?

on the 982r? how often does he have a hand here? cna u check raise here, can you float? what are his post flop tendancies, if you dont know what these are then this is the leak in your game not calling 3bets OOP Bvb with semi strong hands vs semi weak ranges

Ok, we have KQs oop in a 3 bet pot.

Flop is 982r, villain cbets his entire range, we know that much about him.

What now?

Are we going to float out of position with the SPR reaching a commitment point?

Check raise fold to shove?

Shove over cbet?

Look.... I've asked you specific questions about this hand which you haven't responded to. I'd genuinely be interested in your answers.

e.g. what happens when we bet the OESD and the turn bricks off? Do we check fold or shove?

I'm not interesting in trading insults like "time to study more" or blanket statements like "this statement is so ignorant".

What do I need to study? Why is that statement ignorant? That's a useful discussion, everything else is just dick waving.

FYI that statement is basically a very condensed overview of the 3 bet section in SSNLHE. If you think it's FoS, fine; but if you're going to say that Ed Miller and the other authors are wrong then I think you need to give a pretty decent explanation.

call pre and make monies when we hit?
and we can c/r a decent amount if villain likes to cbet and his 3betting range is wide

In the blinds i guess you need to have somewhat of a 3bet defending range against really aggressive regs
its much easier for him to adapt to our 4betting than it will be to adapt playing his very wide range vs our strong range in a 3bet pot
especially if he 3bets that merged.

Also plz dont min4bet vs a guy who will fold 0% of his 3betting range against it. He gets insane odds and hes paranoid as you say.
If people fold to it fine exploit it but dont do it against this guy.

You tell me, your the one at sitting a the table and observing villian not me?

also when you mention the SPR reaching a commitment point I think your confusing what the pot size will be if you call a 3b to what it actually was once it became a 4b pot.

a statement like playing fit/fold in 3bet pots OOP is burning money is just a unhelpful way of thinking about poker because it forces you to consider the game 'solved' and ultimately you end up playing your ranges statically in all spots. reasons why calling KQs is fine here are numerous;

- we perceive it to be way ahead of his 3betting range (remember this is a read you gave us...)
- he's an aggro reg (he'll very likely bluff Kxx/Qxx flops at least one street, if not more)
- he can have worse Kx/Qx/clubs in his 3b bluff range, can flop/stack off with worse draws etc

'I think you're under-estimating how much we lose when we whiff completely and get bluffed, and over-estimating how much we'll win when we hit. '

the problem with this statement should be clear? you've essentially said when we miss he bluffs, but when we connect he doesn't...? he's more likely to bluff boards that he perceives are better for his range (ultimately theyre gonna be better for ours but still)

you need to realise we reach a spot where we can make 3 decisions, open and fold, open and 4bet, open and call. if you don't think you have a higher expectation from defending KQs as opposed to folding it then you should probably do a little work on your postflop theory (combinatronics, equities vs ranges, stat interpretation, tendencies etc) we can exploit this guy both by flatting this hand and 4betting him with other hands

i'll post more on the other questions when i get the time

I've given you everything I know about the villain and the situation so you know as much as I do about him now.

I wouldn't have a clue what to do with KQs on 982r oop without the initiative in a 3 bet pot. This is why I''m not advocating a flat call pre.

But if you do like a flat call pre, then I think you have to have a plan for this kind of flop which is why I'm asking, what would you do vs a cbet?

my decision as to do what to do post flop would be influenced by a number of factors incuding:

Flop Agg
Turn AGg
River GG
(3bet pots and in general)
WTS &
WWSF %
Fold to flop cbet raise %
Fold to river leads
Flop & Turn Cbet &
Betszing/Timing
How does he react to donkbets

And the notes that I would have on him (I take very detailed notes)
Specifially id be interested in what kind of flops he checks back as PFA in single raised and 3bet pots.

Also meta type factors

Currently gameflow
Is he winning or losing right now
How is my image right now and vs him a a whole
etc


without knowing this information I cant answer your question.

I wish I could copy and paste the section on 3 bet pots in SSNLHE here, but essentially that is exactly what they say.

This is what makes light 3 betting a polarized range so profitable. If people adjust by calling and playing fit or fold you can absolutely murder them over many medium sized pots.

Then when they do have a hand you do not pay them off as you have complete air.

In good shape were my exact words but yeah, we're definitely not crushed.

Yes, we will definitely get 1 cbet out of him in these situations.

The argument in SSNLHE is that in these situations we do not make enough to counteract the times we miss and check/fold if we're playing fit or fold.

If he's 3 betting a depolarized range, like this guy turned out to be, then yes.

However, most people are 3 betting a polarized range in these spots so they tend to have nuts/air. I pretty much put him on air when I 4 bet and I'm looking to take down the dead money pre.

No I think this is the misunderstanding between us.

We will make money when he bluffs and we have something, but over the long run that doesn't make up for the losses we incur in the pots when we miss.

This may not apply to a depolarized range (where we can make a lot vs dominated hands), but I think the majority of light 3 bettors have polarized ranges.

Cool, if I was in position I would be far more happy with flatting this.

The crux of it for me is that we just cannot play fit or fold in 3 bet pots. We have to play back at him without a hand sometimes if we're going to have a flatting range.

But it's just sooo hard to do that oop vs an aggressive opponent with a low SPR in a 3 bet pot without the initiative.

For me flat calling a 3 bet oop without a monster made hand already is just never going to be profitable.

I think maybe if someone were such an excellent postflop player, to the point where being out of position didn't matter that much, then yeah, flatting oop is fine.

If people have ideas about how to deal with KQs oop in a 3 bet pot on 982r I'd love to hear them.

Genuinely not trying to be awkward, I just think it's an almost impossible spot to play profitably post flop.

This is the thing, without 1000s of hands on villain and detailed reads, which we don't have, we won't have that kind of meaningful information.

With the massive player pool at the micros we need a strategy that can work without that level of detailed info.

That said, I think even with that level of information, this would still be a nightmare spot and we'd just end up folding rather than playing guessing games for stacks oop.

you dont need 1000s of hands, you just to get a good feel for gameflow and understand what stats mean and how they interact with each other.

Maybe its not something you can do though without millions of hands of experience. So maybe what you need is more experience, stop living by poker mantras and rules in books and focus on actually playing poker and finding out what works and what doesnt and against who?

It's very easy to make statements like that without talking about any specifics at all. Also, the 3 bet pot argument put forward in SSNLHE is not a rule or a mantra, it' backed up by maths and logic.

But... maybe they're wrong and you're right. Maybe their argument doesn't apply at the micros.

Go into your HEM database, put a filter in for called 3 bet OOP and deselect premium pairs.

Post the results grouped by stakes.

If you're correct, you should be making a profit.

ok well since I moved countrys i have access to only the 170kish hands played since.

so all in all ive called a 3bet OOP in the SB since the move (22 times), winning a total of 136 BB/100

interestingly ive lost 152 BB/100 when ive fold to a 3bet in the SB (26 times)

Bear in mind this a sample of 170k hands from a total of roughly 2.5 million played

Overall WR raising first in is 24BB/100

this is all hands exluding QQ+ & AK

pretty meaningless sample put ill upload the pics for you anyway.

Ok so im making a profit, whats your argument now?

If someones putting a lot of money in the pot against you consistently with weak holdings, just stop bluffing. So yeah, tighten up your late position opening range. If you play with him a lot I doubt he'll notice on the hud. Then profit. Also you may just not want to sit on the guys right.

Called 3bet



Fold to 3b

I think we may need more than 22 hands as a sample size before we can say this strategy is any good.

Good luck, but if you're calling 3 bets with A7s and KTs oop you're going to get seriously owned unless you become very good at folding top pair.

You should change the filter to remove all in preflop hands, but yeah, the sample size is completely meaningless.

EDIT: In one of those hand you're all in preflop as a 3-1 dog. That's not the situation we're talking about, so -13BB for that hand from the total.

really?

let me think, 2.5+ million hands played from NL25 to NL100. 35 winnings months out of 36

overall wr of +2.5BB/100

yes your right im going to get owned.

I dont base my decisions to call, fold or 4bet on my hand strength but based on my opponents tendancies.

Im totally conformtable playing post flop IP/OOP in single raised or 3bet pots.

I can play these hands comfortably OOP in some circumstances because im confident in the fact that I simple wont get owned.

Of course I can fold top pair, but I also dont need a pair to win a pot, even at showdown.

lol re: the KQ all in hand, villian was playing 60/40 and started the hand with less than 10bbs you expect me to ever fold K high there?

So out of 170,000 hands there are 22 where you've called a 3 bet OOP and at least one of them is preflop?

That should tell you something, i.e. it's an awful situation and you avoid it as much as you can.

No, I'm saying that you should remove all of the all in preflop hands from the sample as we're talking specifically about playing postflop in 3 bet pots OOP and without the intiative

Hold on... you've only been 3 bet when OOP a total of 48 hands out of 170,000... really?? I've been 3 bet 206 times when OOP this month alone!

what should it tell me?

Come on enlighten me, obviously the fact that I have crushed online games for 3 years consistently means very little compared to the fact that you have read a book

what is your analysis of the huge gap in wrs between calling a 3bet and folding to 3bt over an almost identical trial size?

It appears to me that you are very close minded and wont accept that there are many ways to make a profit in this game. I accept that my skill level and experience is greater than yours at this stage and probably you wont be able to call 3bets OOP and make a profit at this stage in your development, so that brings me back to my previous point, Focus on playing pots and gaining experience to become better post flop as opposed to relying soley in information you gave read in book.

glook, why do you think calling a 3bet OOP is an awful situation? seems a bit dramatic? Personally I dont view it as anythink like awful, just a little tricky sometimes. other times against certain opponents im not bothered whether I am IP or OOP, my goal is to just play pots with them because I know what they are going to do and what I can do with themto make money.

I think it is an awful prospect for you because you because you are not comfortable with doing it. Once you become comfortable doing it. it wont be so awful. Like anything in life.

also you suggesting I should remove all of the pre flop hands from the stats provided. By all you mean 1 right?

Raised First in SB vs BB, but I also table select pretty damn good too. If a guy in the BB is going to be 3betting my SB opens ill go elsewhere unless there is a very good reason to stay.

also remember that the 170k hands is like 5% of my total hands played

What are the figures when you're getting 3 bet by the button?

Ill have a look for you too but ill post them much later, Ive wasted too much time on this already today and its time for me to play some poker rather than talk about it.

although im going to need to try and work out how to do this and exlcude all the times the BU minbet and one or both of the blinds came along, which is the norm in the games I play as I think only HU situtations are relevant to this discussion. At the moment I dont have the time to work out how to filter this way.

How are you not getting that this is why you can play profitably post flop oop to a 3b here?
You will get this player's stack on Kxx, Qxx boards when he's holding JJ, TT, dominated Kx or Qx because he just has to know (especially when there's draws you rep, though to be honest vs this player I don't think it matters). You lose 6bb to call pre when you have to check/fold.
It's also why you have to check fold the 982 boards even though you're doing ok vs his range. You still get to pick up a cb then fold all his air (and AK, AQ, etc.) when you hit draws.

If you're convinced you can't play profitably here in 3b pot then just fold pre but you're not going to do that as, as Daycare mentioned, you already know that's wrong.

It's great if he has something that can pay us off and we also have a strong hand, but I don't think that happens often enough to make up for all of the times we have to check fold.

I'm basing this entirely on the 3 betting section of SSNLHE, they put forward a very convincing and coherent argument as to why it's not profitable in the long run.

I havent read the book but im guessing this chapter doesn't go into every possible player type combined with every unique set of tendancies right?

Nothing should be taken as set in stone, what you have read is great and generally true, its not profitble to call 3bets OOP if you are going to play Fit or Fold post flop.

the last bit is the key, dont play fit or fold post flop, work out what you can exploit in your opponent post flop and do it. IP and OOP.

but just because you dont plan do play fit or fold post flop before the flop hits doesnt mean you never check fold once it does hit, evaulate the board texture and ensivage how it could run out and make your plan.

Its your job to work out how people are playing at any given time, not just by their stats but how they are playing right now (as the same player can play wildly different on different tables, in a different emotional state vs different opponents etc), at that table with you and adjust to the gameflow.

Once you stop playing fit or fold post flop then you can find opponents/spots that you can play 3bet pots OOP profitably.

eg. basic example, If i told you that im going to 3bet you every time you opened the SB but that im only going pot money in post flop with TP or better (my tendancie) what adjustment would you make to exploit me and turn this into a profitable situation? or are still going to fold every time because you believe its not profitable to ever call 3bets OOP?

if your only trying to hit a hand to make money ur basically playing like a fish, but with a little bit more understanding of poker concepts and math.