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KK, Bad flop, how should i play it NLCASH KK, Bad flop, how should i play it NLCASH

08-31-2007 , 09:00 PM
Villian has been raising very frequently, and i have 3bet a number of times, all to 36. He has mixed in calls and folds. Another hand he had 88 on a J high flop and flat called my cbet and checked down to the river, so that is one of my reasonings for betting the flop. I called the river only because i showed so much weakness. I was thinking maybe a blocking bet would be better of like 60ish that way he is calling with basically any pair that i beat and i doubt he flat calls me onthe flop with an ace to check the turn and then raise me on the river.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 2 Players - (http://www.legopoker.com http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

Hero (BB): $1,154.10
SB: $441.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt Ks Kd (2 Players)
SB raises to $12.00, Hero raises to $36.00, SB calls $24.00

Flop: ($72) Ac 4d 6s (2 Players)
Hero bets $46.00, SB calls $46.00

Turn: ($164) 7h (2 Players)
Hero checks, SB checks

River: ($164) 2c (2 Players)
Hero checks, SB bets $100.00, Hero calls $100.00

Pot Size: $364.00 ($0.50 Rake)

SB had Ah Jh (a pair of Aces) and WON (+$181.50)
Hero had Ks Kd and LOST (-$182.00)

thoughts?
KK, Bad flop, how should i play it NLCASH Quote
08-31-2007 , 09:09 PM
I think that the 88 hand incorrectly influenced your decision. A jack high flop is a lot different than an ace high flop because your range contains a lot more hands with an ace than with a jack.

Back to the hand: I don't see him valuebetting a worse hand here, do you? Only thing you beat is some sort of float, but I think thats unlikely.
KK, Bad flop, how should i play it NLCASH Quote
08-31-2007 , 09:11 PM
ino i made a terrible call, but i would like to ask if people think if i make a 60-70 bet at the river if it would be much better, because like i said before i doubt he would flat call the flop to check the turn and call the river. Also by betting here he is given the chance to call off with any random pocket pair he may be holding or hands like 5-6 that he mightve tried to float the flop with.
KK, Bad flop, how should i play it NLCASH Quote
08-31-2007 , 09:13 PM
Oh. Then yes, I think thats a better plan than this. At this level do people bluff raise thin value bets?
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08-31-2007 , 09:29 PM
they may, but i dont see that happening because it seems very difficult for some one to float an A high flop in a reraised pot to bluff the river. So i doubt on this flop he is bluff raising a bet from me.
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09-01-2007 , 02:40 AM
I'd check the flop and go from there. I'd probably call one bet, maybe two.
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09-01-2007 , 02:43 AM
if i check the flop, im opening it up to alot of bluffs from hands that fold to a cbet, like KQ, QJ, KJ, big SCs, probably most pairs, i think check calling the flop is the worst play because i wont know where im at, by betting and him calling it narrows hands down to most aces and mayb hands like 88+
KK, Bad flop, how should i play it NLCASH Quote
09-01-2007 , 02:57 AM
Why would you want to make a bet that narrows his range down to mostly hands that beat you when you can expand his range greatly (and make more money) by inducing a bluff? Villain could also do something like minraise your cbet. Then what are you doing? Check-calling keeps villain's range as wide as possible and makes you the most money. If villain has KQ/QJ/KJ/SCs why do you want him to fold? He's drawing to runner-runner with just about all of those hands.
KK, Bad flop, how should i play it NLCASH Quote
09-01-2007 , 03:58 AM
Quote:
Why would you want to make a bet that narrows his range down to mostly hands that beat you when you can expand his range greatly (and make more money) by inducing a bluff? Villain could also do something like minraise your cbet. Then what are you doing? Check-calling keeps villain's range as wide as possible and makes you the most money. If villain has KQ/QJ/KJ/SCs why do you want him to fold? He's drawing to runner-runner with just about all of those hands.
I don't like a check here. If we check call the flop, we have to fold if he bets again on the turn. Or, if he decides to bet the turn, we have to fold river. If we bet, he must be afraid of an ace and if he calls, we can determine that he won't try to bluff us because we showed strenght on ace high board. He won't float us on ace high board. However, we might have a hand like A8 when we show weakness on two streets so he won't bet without an ace.
KK, Bad flop, how should i play it NLCASH Quote
09-05-2007 , 02:26 PM
Check here is good on the flop. Fold the river for sure. Also reraise size preflop is not good at all.
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09-05-2007 , 02:45 PM
Check on the flop is a possibility if you read that he will fire one barell but not two of them. If you feel he is aggressive enough that he will bluff two times, then he might push you off the hand when you play a hand passively on all streets. In this case, betting is better because people will rarely try a float on an ace high board in reraised pot. That way you won't get bluffed out.

Once he called you on the flop, you have to fold river. He is not bluffing here.
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09-05-2007 , 04:10 PM
Quote:
Oh. Then yes, I think thats a better plan than this. At this level do people bluff raise thin value bets?
yes
KK, Bad flop, how should i play it NLCASH Quote
09-05-2007 , 05:01 PM
Quote:
Why would you want to make a bet that narrows his range down to mostly hands that beat you when you can expand his range greatly (and make more money) by inducing a bluff? Villain could also do something like minraise your cbet. Then what are you doing? Check-calling keeps villain's range as wide as possible and makes you the most money. If villain has KQ/QJ/KJ/SCs why do you want him to fold? He's drawing to runner-runner with just about all of those hands.
Seems difficult and not very likely for some one to bluff minraise KQ on an Ace high flop, the reason i think it is better to bet here is to 1. represent an ace and hopeuflly take it down, and 2. to not get moved off a hand by worse hands that will most likely bluff if i check.
also, i know the river is a god awful call, i was just wondering about my flop play
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09-05-2007 , 05:12 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Why would you want to make a bet that narrows his range down to mostly hands that beat you when you can expand his range greatly (and make more money) by inducing a bluff? Villain could also do something like minraise your cbet. Then what are you doing? Check-calling keeps villain's range as wide as possible and makes you the most money. If villain has KQ/QJ/KJ/SCs why do you want him to fold? He's drawing to runner-runner with just about all of those hands.
Seems difficult and not very likely for some one to bluff minraise KQ on an Ace high flop, the reason i think it is better to bet here is to 1. represent an ace and hopeuflly take it down, and 2. to not get moved off a hand by worse hands that will most likely bluff if i check.
also, i know the river is a god awful call, i was just wondering about my flop play
I agree with you 100%. Good thinking. Read my post before. However, the way you described villain he seems like the guy who might take shot on the flop and not follow it through on other two streets so I understand arguments for check calling one time only. But I would probably play the same as you did (except the river call).

It is a tough situation, one which all poker players learn to hate and no one learns how to handle it.
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09-05-2007 , 06:31 PM
If calling a second barrel is +EV then just c/c the turn also. Even if c/c'ing the turn is -EV, the +EV you get from c/c'ing the flop might make a c/c, c/c line (even though not optimal) +EV overall. In any case, regardless of what you do on future streets, unless for some reason there ARE NO moves on turn/river which aren't extremely -EV, then you should not give up any +EV on the flop. And c/c IS +EV on the flop, IMO, so I would do that rather than betting which is clearly NOT +EV.
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09-06-2007 , 03:33 AM
Quote:
If calling a second barrel is +EV then just c/c the turn also. Even if c/c'ing the turn is -EV, the +EV you get from c/c'ing the flop might make a c/c, c/c line (even though not optimal) +EV overall. In any case, regardless of what you do on future streets, unless for some reason there ARE NO moves on turn/river which aren't extremely -EV, then you should not give up any +EV on the flop. And c/c IS +EV on the flop, IMO, so I would do that rather than betting which is clearly NOT +EV.
You do that against all villains or are you talking just about that specific villain in our example?
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