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KK 3 bet pot KK 3 bet pot

11-13-2007 , 10:05 PM
At first I thought this is a standard fold but Im unsure because my diamonds and 2 outs to the set could be good. Villain runs at 23/12/1.29. He isnt very aggressive so I figured he could easily have me drawing to 2 outs, but then again I really had no idea.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

SB: $34.50
Hero (BB): $82.25
UTG: $51.90
MP: $16.95
CO: $71.15
BTN: $78.20

Pre-Flop: K K dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $0.50, MP folds, CO raises to $2.25, 2 folds, Hero raises to $9, UTG folds, CO calls $6.75

Flop: ($18.75) T 7 A (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $9, Hero calls $9

Turn: ($36.75) 3 (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $22, Hero....
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-13-2007 , 10:14 PM
I say bet the pot on the flop. I your check is an almost auto bet on his part. If someone is going to be scared in the hand I'd rather it be him.

I think I bet till I hear from him. If I feel he's in a check call mode, I MAY check the river calling any small to medium bet.

But I'm fairly new to nl myself bear that in mind.
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-13-2007 , 10:18 PM
Betting the flop is a bad move. He isnt paying me off with worse very often and is only calling/raising with better. The reason I check the flop is so he can make that move with air or a lower pair. And yes, sometimes I also check here with an ace, but honestly only if its against a reg because otherwise its just a waste of value.
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-13-2007 , 10:54 PM
Quote:
Betting the flop is a bad move. He isnt paying me off with worse very often and is only calling/raising with better. The reason I check the flop is so he can make that move with air or a lower pair. And yes, sometimes I also check here with an ace, but honestly only if its against a reg because otherwise its just a waste of value.
It's true that by betting the flop you might push out weaker hands and only get called by aces, so there is value in a check/call on the flop if the flop is viewed in isolation.

However, I think the value you gain by letting weaker hands bluff on the flop is generally cancelled by the EV we lose by playing OOP on a scary board and not knowing where we are in the hand. (I have no calculations or math to back this up, it's just intuition - it could also just be my discomfort with playing OOP and something I need to work on.)

Villain now has control of the hand and is free to shape the size of the pot to fit his hand strength. I would rather keep the lead and take down a larger than normal pot early than build an even larger pot that we may be forced to walk away from on the turn and river.

Also, you may check w/ an A on a non-threating A high board sometimes, but I doubt you do it with all these draws present. Checking here telegraphs that you don't have an ace imo and allows villain to take you to valuetown.
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-13-2007 , 10:56 PM
You really think the average or even decent NL50 player realizes that when I check with an ace on this board, it is usually dry? First of all, I barely get to showdown as it is, so Im not convinced that checking this flop is even close to wrong tbh. The value I can gain from checking the flop and snapping off a bluff definitely outweighs the value of me betting and getting a fold. However, the flop is not really what I wanted to talk about, I care alot more about the turn here.
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-13-2007 , 11:03 PM
I didn't say it was wrong, I just said I prefer not to do it because I'm a wuss when I play OOP and I'm afraid of getting run over or getting sucked into a large pot when behind.

Anyway, on the turn you are only ahead of QQ and JJ, and I'm not even sure they 2 barrel after you c/c the flop. You're not getting odds for a FD even if he doesn't have the A, so I think it's a pretty easy fold.
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-14-2007 , 12:11 AM
seen this in a thread a while ago and I think u either gotta bet/fold or check/fold. I don't like check/call there 1 bit. inducing bets u can't call IMO.
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-14-2007 , 12:14 AM
Youre b/f-ing KK on this flop? If you are then why?
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-14-2007 , 12:19 AM
Quote:
I say bet the pot on the flop. I your check is an almost auto bet on his part. If someone is going to be scared in the hand I'd rather it be him.
Bet the flop to find out where you're at. Since the bet on the flop is auto for him, you won't know if he's got a hand like JJ or AK. On the flop, b/f. If he's got some type of read on you and mans up enough to raise that board with a weaker hand... I just can't see myself calling a raise here. I hate the c/c because it leaves him in control of the hand, and forces you to remain guessing as to where you're at. As played, I might have to c/f the turn...
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-14-2007 , 12:23 AM
I typically c-bet the flop here for many of the reasons doppelganger stated.

If I'm in position though, I'll often check behind.
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-14-2007 , 12:23 AM
I've got to go with the bet and fold to a reraise line. No way you can call a 2 barrell on the turn for sure. Gotta be in the drivers seat for this hand if you ever expect to have +EV, calling 3 streets to get a showdown is murder.

I reserve the right to 2 barrell based on timing tells on the turn.
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-14-2007 , 02:05 AM
Gotta cbet this so you dont get bluffed out by worse hands. Checking behind is ok if your in position but not here.
KK 3 bet pot Quote
11-16-2007 , 01:40 AM
If you don't bet the flop, check call, you stand to lose the most I think.

Any perceptive player will see you're check calling and at BEST assume you're check calling a weak ace. I think against any thinking player you're going to go
check call flop, check call turn, then on the river if he has the ace he's going to be enough for you to pay him off, if he doesn't he'll probably spike it enough you can't call.
KK 3 bet pot Quote

      
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