Villain is 58/22/2.4-af over 117 hands.He is a fish but i still havent seen him stackof light postflop.So looks like a loose preflop player but a decent one postflop.
CO is 20/10 over 128 hands.
SB is 26/16 over 94 hands.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.30(BB) Replayer
SB ($36.94)
($30)
UTG ($39.95)
UTG+1 ($102)
UTG+2 ($30.21)
Hero ($56.39)

UTG+1 raises to $1.05, UTG+2 calls $1.05, Hero calls $1.05, SB calls $0.90, fold

FLOP ($4.50) 5 J 8

SB checks, UTG+1 bets $2.25, UTG+2 calls $2.25, Hero calls $2.25, SB calls $2.25

TURN ($13.50) 5 J 8 J

SB checks, UTG+1 bets $13.50, UTG+2 folds, Hero???

How much should i raise here???If he shoves after i raise him then i think i am pretty much commited and i have to call his shove.

Thanks in advance.

u have KJ spades? idk if i'm just blind but i can't see your hand

I'd like to see a raise on the flop. As played, raise the turn especially because he is a fish.

hero has KcJc.

THe only hands that are completely dominating u atm are 55 and 88. These are not likely as he was betting so big ott that he's probably afraid of the fds.

What's interesting is his bet size otf, that was definitely a bit too small for tpgk on that board with so many people acting behind. Maybe he had tpwk. Now on the turn, he turns trip and he's betting heavy coz it's wet and it's unlikely someone else has a J. I think ur ahead a lot of the time here. Maybe he has AJ, but still u have so many outs to beat that too. Just raise strong, and if he rr, go all-in.

OK, thought OP had the fd... obviously not.... but still a lot of the above read still counts. I dun think he has AJ and J8 and J5 are just weird. He's probably betting with a weaker J, like QJ, JT, J9s. Call, or if u think he's spewy, raise and call a shove

Pre is okay only cuz villain is bad. Turn never going anywhere, I would raise unless u think he's capable of bluffing like this.

It seems to me that raising flop is dangerous.

Dangerous why? If youre fairly confident the villain isnt 3 betting light postflop, you can value raise him and fold to a 3b. The guy is raising 22% of his hands, it doesnt seem unreasonable for him to have weaker jacks, flush draws, or straight draws here.

For the people saying to just call on this flop, there are a lot of bad turn cards. We have no idea where we are if an A, 7, Q, 4, 9, or spade hits. So if any of those hit instead of our gin card, now what? Assuming you call the turn after one of those cards hits, what do you do on a blank turn?

Ye, I agree. Call flop and raise turn.

I dont like calling on the flop because it is drawy and multiway but I dont like raising as well because we built a big pot with marginal hand and there are probably overpairs and AJ in villains calling a raise or 3betting range.

it was probably better to 3b/squeeze pre imo.

Our hand isnt marginal against his range is what Im getting at.

I agree with this 100%.

Also, just calling means your at least going to the turn 3ways, which factored in with all the horrible turn cards possible makes raising a good answer.

As played I'm raising/getting it in on the turn. It's definitely possible for him to stack off with worse Jacks and combo draws.

This is where i was lost on the flop too.If i raised then i would obviously have to fold to a shove.I too didnt like calling much because of drawy flop and letting many players in,a sure recipe for for losing.But then i thought of raising and that if i got called i would create a big pot with just a TP2K hand which too was bad.So i went for a call.However i do think now that it was a mistake.

Yes but is turning your hand more or less into bluff really that good idea? You don't appear bluffy when raising in multiway pot. Probably best you can hope for is some sort of fd calling but even that has likely more outs than just flush so you are about coinflipping. He's not calling raise likely with hand like JT on flop...Especially as he hasn't seen him stack off light and calling raises with JT is very light stacking off as it only beats bluffs. Not neccessarily even ahead all of draws...

If you raise flop you are pretty much hoping everybody to fold. You like neither call nor 3bet. Hmmm...Raising with TP 2nd kicker hoping everybody to fold...Now why I don't particulary like that line of thought.

KcJC ? def raise flop

Raising the flop is so bad wtf. He is aggressive, let him bluff off his chips. Call flop call turn. The only way i raise flop is if i knew villain tendencies (which we dont), you guys are acting like we can play perfect vs someone who we know nothing about by raising the flop.

I'm like "lol" too. wtf, raising the flop against unknown with TPGK. We can't do it for value - almost no worse hands are calling - and neither as a bluff because no better hands are folding. If we raise flop we're isolating ourselves against better hands and making HIM play his hand flawless, also we're losing a ton of value from his second barrels etc. when he folds.

This is just megaspewy and not profitable on this limit (its nl30 ffs, wtf), just either call him down and let him barrel with his worse jack or fd or raise the turn if you think he can call or shove with a fd or a worse jack. Calling the turn isn't bad anyways, you're either dominated by 55, 88 or AJ or you're so far ahead against his 18% fd that you can call and let him bluff his money away otr.

What do you mean no worse hands call? I can think of a bunch. I still maintain not raising flop for value is losing value. If we get popped back, I'm happy getting it in.

You're calling a 3betshove on the flop with only TPGK and no redraw in a multiway pot for 200bb against a fish who OP writes about "He is a fish but i still havent seen him stackof light postflop.So looks like a loose preflop player but a decent one postflop"?

Your screenname please? Do you play on ongame?

ah clubs not spades woops

I dont think we can play perfectly against him by raising, there will be times he 3 bets a draw and I fold without a read. I think were playing even more of a guessing game by just calling though when there are so many bad cards that can hit the turn or river. Assuming we dont hit our gin card on the turn like we did, what are your plans on the river if he bets and a blank hits? What about a spade? What about a 9, 4, Q, or 7? Its better to just call flop and turn and auto fold most rivers?


I dont see how raising here is a bluff, sure Id like to just take it down and I dont want to get 3b, but Im not upset to see him call. Its true we are bloating a pot with just top pair, but Id much rather go for value on the flop and turn on a board like this and check the river than going for value on later streets and he might just give up his missed draw.

How exactly does raising the flop help us define his range more then just calling ? (it just eliminates his bluffing range) He will still call with all gut shots, flush draws, over pairs, AJ etc. We have no clue what a good turn card would be on the turn even when you raise so calling will just keep his bluffing range in the pot and keeps the pot smaller. In reality you are just raising to " see where you are at"