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JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP

01-04-2008 , 10:31 AM
Villain is 20/16

I sometimes 3-bet here, but decided to just call.

Do you raise flop?
Can I call turn?
If so, how much to you call on blank river?

Prima Network No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (3 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

SB ($14.06)
Hero ($10.07)
Button ($9.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J.
Button raises to $0.4, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30.

Flop: ($0.85) T, 4, 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.7, Hero calls $0.70.

Turn: ($2.25) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.9, Hero....
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 10:48 AM
Imo this shows why 3b is superior in this spot. If you 3b preflop, villian should put you on a relatively wide range as you could/should be restealing here alot.

As played is not bad though, and as you say you usually 3b. Your image/stats is sort of important here as a villain with those stats is likely to have a hud. Assuming villain is aggro and your image is not total nit I would donk flop hoping to get raised. You are way ahead of his range.

As played you are way ahead of his range on the turn as well, and turn is a call. I'd probably call a reasonable river bet as well, depending on villain aggression and what the river is.

Edit: When I say way ahead, I dont mean 'set-over-set-way-ahead', if you are ahead villain either has 6, 5, 3 or 2 outs. I'm just making the point that JJ is usually good here.

Edit2: Actually he could easily have 8 outs on the flop and then picked up more on the turn (89s). But you get my drift.

Last edited by TheRenaissance; 01-04-2008 at 10:54 AM.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:14 AM
I'm not sure what the plan is here. He's should have a very wide raising range on the button 3 handed. You shouldn't play JJ just for set value here, and when you flop an overpair you should be fairly confident you have the best hand.

If you don't raise at some point, I think you have to call down. Against a relentlessly aggressive opponent, I might do that. Here, I'd c/r the flop.

You can either call turn/bet river or raise the turn. I don't like either as much as raising the flop. Problem with raising the turn is you pretty much have to be willing to get all in. If you call the turn, I'd bet the river $2.50-$3.50.

Last edited by jb9; 01-04-2008 at 11:26 AM. Reason: typo
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:24 AM
Usually 3-bet preflop.

C/c flop. C/c turn. Flop and turn is very straight forward in this spot, river is where it might get tricky.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:28 AM
I usually 3 bet pre here but w/e

as played I think c/c is ok a c/r prob doesnt get called buy much you beat I guess. but then agian im sure villan prob has a decent amount of outs agianst you. im not sure what is more ev here c/calling down assuming we have the best hand or rasing at some point in the hand and villan mostly folds but prob has decent equity vs our hand.

I c/r here sometimes to balance out the fact that I c/r TAG villans with air a bit here too but im not sure how important that is.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:29 AM
3bet pre, c/r flop if villian aggro or lead if passive .7x pot. Lead both turn and river if no scare card hits. if it does check down and fold to a huge bet or call if odds are good. Damn i hate playing oop.

Last edited by Masterhp; 01-04-2008 at 11:35 AM.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Royale
Usually 3-bet preflop.

C/c flop. C/c turn. Flop and turn is very straight forward in this spot, river is where it might get tricky.
why c/c here, i think a c/r is def +EV
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterhp
why c/c here, i think a c/r is def +EV
Check/raising the flop is not good imo. The board is dry and T-high so I don't think we'll get action from too many worse hands vs a taggy player unless we have any history. I think check/raising the turn is fine though.

Edit: Check/raising the flop is def +ev, but I think c/c is more +ev.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:39 AM
So you are happy to get it AI on the turn...
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:44 AM
Eh, I dont know why I havent mentioned this before, but this is a perfect spot for a stopngo. CC flop, lead turn FTW (fold to a raise).
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWooster
So you are happy to get it AI on the turn...
Yeah, that would be fine. Some draws hit on the turn, so:

1. He could put us on a hand that picked up a draw.
2. He might have picked up a draw himself.

This means we can get paid off by worse (combo draws, AT etc) and there's also a reason to protect our hand, which wasn't the case on the flop.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRenaissance
Eh, I dont know why I havent mentioned this before, but this is a perfect spot for a stopngo. CC flop, lead turn FTW (fold to a raise).
Wouldn't call it perfect since we're likely having 6-12 outs if behind and we might fold the best hand if we b/f (combo draws like Txhh/fd+gs might push).
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Royale
Wouldn't call it perfect since we're likely having 6-12 outs if behind and we might fold the best hand if we b/f (combo draws like Txhh/fd+gs might push).
Yes but we get value from worse hands that might check behind for value, AND we dont give the 6outers a free card.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 12:45 PM
Also, how can WE possibly have 12 outs when behind? What do you mean?
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRenaissance
Also, how can WE possibly have 12 outs when behind? What do you mean?
T9
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Royale
Check/raising the flop is not good imo. The board is dry and T-high so I don't think we'll get action from too many worse hands vs a taggy player unless we have any history. I think check/raising the turn is fine though.

Edit: Check/raising the flop is def +ev, but I think c/c is more +ev.
what if he goes all in against our raise?

Edit: on the turn, would you fold?
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 01:03 PM
i think ppl are forgetting that there are only 3 ppl at the table. He is also in great position to bluff. So i kind of agree w/ Nick with c/c and c/r the turn for maximum +EV. However if we do c/r the turn and he decides to go all in, i think we have to call with the pot odds, which would def hurt us.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Royale
T9
You shouldnt count a ten or a nine as an out unless you somehow can put villain squarely on 74.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRenaissance
You shouldnt count a ten or a nine as an out unless you somehow can put villain squarely on 74.
I think Nick was saying that when villain has T9, the 7 and 4 are outs for us.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masterhp
what if he goes all in against our raise?

Edit: on the turn, would you fold?
I check/raise the turn to get it in.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote
01-04-2008 , 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRenaissance
You shouldnt count a ten or a nine as an out unless you somehow can put villain squarely on 74.
We got 12 outs against any 2-pair combo, T9 being most likely for him to have.
JJ - called pf - flops overpait OOP Quote

      
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