I got banned for LIFE from Foxwoods (tl;dr)
01-10-2009
, 05:06 PM
For educational and entertainment purposes, I'll tell about a couple of experiences playing with that broketard Frankie Flowers.
It's a few years ago, and there is a $10K tourney at the Borgata. There are a lot of juicy games going. FF is at my $10-25 table and is clearly a fish. He does nothing unethical in this hand, but this is a typical hand for him (in other words, he sucks). I remember this hand because at the time it was the biggest pot I had ever won.
He raises UTG to $75 with 2
3. A tight, ABC nit 3 bets to $400 or so. This guys definitely has AA or KK, based on how he plays. AK is not in his range (he actually has AA).
The tilting fish on my right cold calls with 9 J.
I look down and have 9
9
. I have about $4K in front of me. Everyone has me covered except FF, who started the hand with only like $2K.
I call, knowing that FF is definitely calling (and because I am stuck and on tilt). FF calls.
Flop is two diamonds, 9 high. Let's say:
4 7 9
FF shoves all in. Tight guy with AA shoves all in. Guy on my right shoves all in. I of course instantly shove all-in. The board pairs on the turn and the river bricks.
As I am stacking my chips, people are telling me "NH, but I don't know about the pre-flop call." The guy who had AA is all class, and just says "NH" and leaves.
At this moment Sklansky walks by right next to our table. People are still saying "Nice one, but I don't know about that call". I say "There's Sklansky, ask him." They yell to him and he stops to listen to see what they want. He is smiling but the rest of his face clearly says "Why won't people leave me alone and how do I get out of here?" as they start to recount the hand. Somehow he escapes without having to listen to the whole hand.
The next day I am again at a $10-25 with FF. He is angle-shooting left and right this time. He reeks of desperation and is pretty clearly on his case money (for the trip, anyway). There are some players at our table who are not very experienced, especially with live poker, and he is using every trivial angleshoot in the book to take advantage of them.
Mostly he is holding up the action when it is his turn, knowing that these guys on his left will act out of turn if he just waits long enough. This is happening again and again. He then starts other angle shoots, like pretending to bet or fold out of turn, knowing full well it is not his turn. He even fakes pitching in his cards (to the muck) once or twice, before eventually calling.
Later he is heads up on the river and last to act. He bets when checked to and the fish calls. FF doesn't show his cards, but announces "Two pair! Can you beat two pair?". The fish says "No", but doesn't muck. FF waits for as long as he can and finally shows down a low pair. The fish shows a better one pair hand and wins.
I've already been getting annoyed from all of his pathetic little angle shoots, so now I say "Wow, that was low, trying to get him to muck like that." He pretends not to know what I mean.
Anyway, later we are in a hand and I bust him. He gets up to leave, and has a small stack of red ($5) chips in his hand. This weekend the red chips played at $10-25 in $10 increments. The dealers/floor people at Borgata don't know their own rules and they change them weekly, but like I said, this week at the Borgata they were saying that reds played. Now any other fish/ broketard who tried to leave with cab/gas/bus money, I would let go. But this guy had been pissing me off and I finally saw an opportunity to get him back for all of the angleshooting.
Before he could leave, I yelled, "Whoa, bring those chips back here!". He turned around and said, "You want these red chips???", clearly annoyed that I was being petty. I said "Yeah, I want those red chips!". He flung them towards my stack and stormed off. It was $40 worth of red.
I didn't see him anymore that trip, so I am guessing he failed to find a sucker to borrow from. I guess someone gave him bus fare though.
It's a few years ago, and there is a $10K tourney at the Borgata. There are a lot of juicy games going. FF is at my $10-25 table and is clearly a fish. He does nothing unethical in this hand, but this is a typical hand for him (in other words, he sucks). I remember this hand because at the time it was the biggest pot I had ever won.
He raises UTG to $75 with 2
3. A tight, ABC nit 3 bets to $400 or so. This guys definitely has AA or KK, based on how he plays. AK is not in his range (he actually has AA).The tilting fish on my right cold calls with 9
J.I look down and have 9
9. I have about $4K in front of me. Everyone has me covered except FF, who started the hand with only like $2K.I call, knowing that FF is definitely calling (and because I am stuck and on tilt). FF calls.
Flop is two diamonds, 9 high. Let's say:
4
7 9FF shoves all in. Tight guy with AA shoves all in. Guy on my right shoves all in. I of course instantly shove all-in. The board pairs on the turn and the river bricks.
As I am stacking my chips, people are telling me "NH, but I don't know about the pre-flop call." The guy who had AA is all class, and just says "NH" and leaves.
At this moment Sklansky walks by right next to our table. People are still saying "Nice one, but I don't know about that call". I say "There's Sklansky, ask him." They yell to him and he stops to listen to see what they want. He is smiling but the rest of his face clearly says "Why won't people leave me alone and how do I get out of here?" as they start to recount the hand. Somehow he escapes without having to listen to the whole hand.
The next day I am again at a $10-25 with FF. He is angle-shooting left and right this time. He reeks of desperation and is pretty clearly on his case money (for the trip, anyway). There are some players at our table who are not very experienced, especially with live poker, and he is using every trivial angleshoot in the book to take advantage of them.
Mostly he is holding up the action when it is his turn, knowing that these guys on his left will act out of turn if he just waits long enough. This is happening again and again. He then starts other angle shoots, like pretending to bet or fold out of turn, knowing full well it is not his turn. He even fakes pitching in his cards (to the muck) once or twice, before eventually calling.
Later he is heads up on the river and last to act. He bets when checked to and the fish calls. FF doesn't show his cards, but announces "Two pair! Can you beat two pair?". The fish says "No", but doesn't muck. FF waits for as long as he can and finally shows down a low pair. The fish shows a better one pair hand and wins.
I've already been getting annoyed from all of his pathetic little angle shoots, so now I say "Wow, that was low, trying to get him to muck like that." He pretends not to know what I mean.
Anyway, later we are in a hand and I bust him. He gets up to leave, and has a small stack of red ($5) chips in his hand. This weekend the red chips played at $10-25 in $10 increments. The dealers/floor people at Borgata don't know their own rules and they change them weekly, but like I said, this week at the Borgata they were saying that reds played. Now any other fish/ broketard who tried to leave with cab/gas/bus money, I would let go. But this guy had been pissing me off and I finally saw an opportunity to get him back for all of the angleshooting.
Before he could leave, I yelled, "Whoa, bring those chips back here!". He turned around and said, "You want these red chips???", clearly annoyed that I was being petty. I said "Yeah, I want those red chips!". He flung them towards my stack and stormed off. It was $40 worth of red.
I didn't see him anymore that trip, so I am guessing he failed to find a sucker to borrow from. I guess someone gave him bus fare though.
01-11-2009
, 11:37 PM
Sort of a long thread, but I'll add my own $0.02, corrections first.
To those who say HEK was banned for an equity chop which did not happen, you are forgetting that he did admit to getting paid $500 of the pot, just not right away, and not the whole agreed amount before he escalated the situation and it all hit the fan.
To those who say the ban was just to cover the floor's error, I do not personally believe the floor really made an error. The floor discouraged the chop, warned the players that the casino would ship the pot to the winning hand, would not enforce the chop if anything went awry, and that they were on their own to complete the deal away from the table. Basically, the deal the floor offered the players was: "no chopping, but we won't do anything to stop you, IF you successfully and quietly complete the deal on your own, away from the table, not violating table stakes, without making a commotion, etc."
Anyone playing 10-20NL professionally ought to know those implicit terms, and if they don't, then $2000 is not that unreasonable a price to pay to learn them. This incident should have cost HEK that $2000, less whatever he could recover from the player later through peer pressure, small claims court, or calmer heads prevailing with the passage of time.
The only reason the cost became $2000 plus a lifetime ban, is HEK's escalation into disruptive behavior, which brought the chop to the attention of security.
It used to be that there was discretion in the length of ban. Roman got a week for thowing his egg sandwich at the wall when playing 20-40 LHE, for instance. But now, it's either 1 day or lifetime. Fear not, I've seen one person come back after 3 or 4 lifetime bans.
Compose a letter. Apologize for being unruly, promise to be a model patron, and say you're getting therapy to deal with an inability to let go of old issues.
Consider this: you were already $500 better off than if you hadn't tried doing the chop; you made a bad decision to do an off-table deal; you made a bad decision to make a scene at your own table; you made a bad decision to make a scene at Frankie's table; your theatrics brought the rules violation to the attention of security; and you failed to let go of an old complaint and floor decision against you. No casino is going to let you disrupt a table you're not even playing at, over a situation at your own table. Nor will any casino let you slander a regular player, over an ancient unproven (even if plausible) allegation against that player.
The main reason to go to a B&M casino is to make sure that you get the chips you are entitled to. To give up that right by cutting an "away from the table, unenforceable by the casino" deal, with anyone less known/trusted than a close friend or family member, is downright stupid and unprofessional. And cutting a deal with such a close person, could be considered soft play or collusion. So just don't do it in either case! I am not saying that deals imply collusion, at a casino where deals are enforceable...go ahead and have the casino run them twice or whatever. I am saying, play by the enforceable rules of the casino like everyone else...that is why you went there in the first place and paid them time or rake.
A discussion of the ancient hand which convinced you that Frankie is a cheater, should be in a separate thread. But like everyone else, I'll comment on that, too. I generally do not play in the same games as him, but I have spent a fair amount of time watching him play, both in tournaments and cash games. He is an unpredictable, tough player bordering on totally wild at times. I have seen him repeatedly make hugely aggressive raises and totally inexplicable calls, at tables of strong players who were verifiably not his friends. I would not rule out the possibility that he and his alleged friend were just seeing who could abuse the other one more, regardless of whether a player or two is "monkey in the middle" between them. I'm not surprised that in the hand in question, it was the friend who had to say uncle, regardless of what the cards were.
Furthermore, it is often good play to bet the same line that has been working for you at a table, until there is resistance. So what you see as a "pattern of collusive cheating", from his perspective is a "pattern of folding to my habitual reraises" until you stick the money in the pot with him and let the cards do the talking. Then if you catch him with a weak hand, he's playing exactly like Doyle Brunson advocates in Super System 2.
Technically, I'm sure that his bets often rely more upon fold equity than showdown equity. If you can't handle players like that, you might want to get a day job or drop down a notch or two.
Seeing as everyone's photo but your own was posted here, I'm not sure who you are....so I'm not sure if I know you, much less whether I'm rooting for you to be allowed back.
But if you can't act like a gentleman after the casino decides which chips are yours, and you hold grudges over resolved old incidents, I'd probably vote to keep you over at Mohegan to think it over for a good while.
Believe it or not, Foxwoods is a pretty special poker room, and part of the reason is that the poker shift managers are quite competent and not the slightest bit corrupt. There is not a more level playing field anywhere that I know of, probably largely due to the no-tipping policy for floors/managers.
The only favoritism I've seen a floor show is that when they see a chip on the carpet, they'll let a regular know where it is. They are not allowed to pick it up themselves, nor to have any chips on their person. I wish it were like that when I visit Vegas as "a tourist". Tipping is fine, but systematic bribery is not. Maybe that's why I don't eat well at Bellagio.
To those who say HEK was banned for an equity chop which did not happen, you are forgetting that he did admit to getting paid $500 of the pot, just not right away, and not the whole agreed amount before he escalated the situation and it all hit the fan.
To those who say the ban was just to cover the floor's error, I do not personally believe the floor really made an error. The floor discouraged the chop, warned the players that the casino would ship the pot to the winning hand, would not enforce the chop if anything went awry, and that they were on their own to complete the deal away from the table. Basically, the deal the floor offered the players was: "no chopping, but we won't do anything to stop you, IF you successfully and quietly complete the deal on your own, away from the table, not violating table stakes, without making a commotion, etc."
Anyone playing 10-20NL professionally ought to know those implicit terms, and if they don't, then $2000 is not that unreasonable a price to pay to learn them. This incident should have cost HEK that $2000, less whatever he could recover from the player later through peer pressure, small claims court, or calmer heads prevailing with the passage of time.
The only reason the cost became $2000 plus a lifetime ban, is HEK's escalation into disruptive behavior, which brought the chop to the attention of security.
It used to be that there was discretion in the length of ban. Roman got a week for thowing his egg sandwich at the wall when playing 20-40 LHE, for instance. But now, it's either 1 day or lifetime. Fear not, I've seen one person come back after 3 or 4 lifetime bans.
Compose a letter. Apologize for being unruly, promise to be a model patron, and say you're getting therapy to deal with an inability to let go of old issues.
Consider this: you were already $500 better off than if you hadn't tried doing the chop; you made a bad decision to do an off-table deal; you made a bad decision to make a scene at your own table; you made a bad decision to make a scene at Frankie's table; your theatrics brought the rules violation to the attention of security; and you failed to let go of an old complaint and floor decision against you. No casino is going to let you disrupt a table you're not even playing at, over a situation at your own table. Nor will any casino let you slander a regular player, over an ancient unproven (even if plausible) allegation against that player.
The main reason to go to a B&M casino is to make sure that you get the chips you are entitled to. To give up that right by cutting an "away from the table, unenforceable by the casino" deal, with anyone less known/trusted than a close friend or family member, is downright stupid and unprofessional. And cutting a deal with such a close person, could be considered soft play or collusion. So just don't do it in either case! I am not saying that deals imply collusion, at a casino where deals are enforceable...go ahead and have the casino run them twice or whatever. I am saying, play by the enforceable rules of the casino like everyone else...that is why you went there in the first place and paid them time or rake.
A discussion of the ancient hand which convinced you that Frankie is a cheater, should be in a separate thread. But like everyone else, I'll comment on that, too. I generally do not play in the same games as him, but I have spent a fair amount of time watching him play, both in tournaments and cash games. He is an unpredictable, tough player bordering on totally wild at times. I have seen him repeatedly make hugely aggressive raises and totally inexplicable calls, at tables of strong players who were verifiably not his friends. I would not rule out the possibility that he and his alleged friend were just seeing who could abuse the other one more, regardless of whether a player or two is "monkey in the middle" between them. I'm not surprised that in the hand in question, it was the friend who had to say uncle, regardless of what the cards were.
Furthermore, it is often good play to bet the same line that has been working for you at a table, until there is resistance. So what you see as a "pattern of collusive cheating", from his perspective is a "pattern of folding to my habitual reraises" until you stick the money in the pot with him and let the cards do the talking. Then if you catch him with a weak hand, he's playing exactly like Doyle Brunson advocates in Super System 2.
Technically, I'm sure that his bets often rely more upon fold equity than showdown equity. If you can't handle players like that, you might want to get a day job or drop down a notch or two.
Seeing as everyone's photo but your own was posted here, I'm not sure who you are....so I'm not sure if I know you, much less whether I'm rooting for you to be allowed back.
But if you can't act like a gentleman after the casino decides which chips are yours, and you hold grudges over resolved old incidents, I'd probably vote to keep you over at Mohegan to think it over for a good while.
Believe it or not, Foxwoods is a pretty special poker room, and part of the reason is that the poker shift managers are quite competent and not the slightest bit corrupt. There is not a more level playing field anywhere that I know of, probably largely due to the no-tipping policy for floors/managers.
The only favoritism I've seen a floor show is that when they see a chip on the carpet, they'll let a regular know where it is. They are not allowed to pick it up themselves, nor to have any chips on their person. I wish it were like that when I visit Vegas as "a tourist". Tipping is fine, but systematic bribery is not. Maybe that's why I don't eat well at Bellagio.
01-12-2009
, 08:17 AM
Quote:
I thought about putting this nvg or some other forum. But my roots are with hsnl and there are way more hsnl'ers who know me than any other forum. There's also alot of foxwoods players who post here. If I'm wrong, mods can move it but i'd like it to stay here for awhile if that's ok.
*******
For quite some time now I've almost entirely stopped playing online poker. I've transitioned to a live pro with my play almost exclusively at foxwoods. I'm not a college kid. I'm 34 years old. I have a family. 2 kids, a wife, 2 dogs, a house, a mortgage payment. 95% of my income is derived from foxwoods and I would never EVER put my income and my ability to provide for my family at risk. That being said, here I am. Banned from foxwoods. For Life. Forever. If you love tl;dr stories, read on. I've explained how it happened with every last detail.
Last saturday Dec 20th around 4pm I was playing an 8-handed 10/20nl game at foxwoods and found myself involved in a pot with a guy who i've seen at foxwoods a couple times before. The pot was $1075 on a flop of 1086. Villian open-shoved $2550 and I eventually called with AA. Before the dealer had a chance to burn the next card, my opponent asked if I wanted to "do business." As we both turned our cards face up (he held 79 for flopped straight) I explained that foxwoods does not allow running it twice but they will allow us to do an EQUITY CHOP. He said he didn't know what that was so i explained how we figure out the % is for each hand and chop the pot accordingly which completely eliminates the variance so neither of us has to play a 6k pot as almost a coin flip. I explained that it does not benefit either player. Using a poker calculator I have installed on my iphone, showed him it was 60/40 in his favor and explained that he would get 60% of the entire pot no matter what. In the middle of our discussion, I called the floor to make sure there wouldn't be any problems. The floorman who arrived said he had to check with his boss so he called over a floor manager. The floor manager's name is Michael and has a moustache but am unsure of his last name atm. The FM told us "We don't allow equity chops here but as long as you guys both agree then it's fine as long as you settle up the money on the side." That quote is VERBATIM. He explained that someone must be awarded the pot and that what we do after that is our own business.
At this point the dealer was about to burn the next card so I stopped him and asked my opponent if he wanted to do the equity chop. He said "Yes." I asked him if he understood what it is and why we're doing it. He said "Yes." I asked him a second time if he agrees to the equity chop. He again agreed.
The turn and river bricked out so the dealer shipped him the pot. I walked over to his side of the table at the 1 seat. Together we calculated that $2470 was mine and the rest was his. He handed me that exact amount in chips. I walked over to my side of the table and placed the chips next to my stack when Michael the Floor Manager stopped me and told us that the chips cannot leave his stack. He has to pay me in cash out of his pocket. My opponent said he doesn't have any cash in his pocket and that everything is on the table. The floor manager never told us that the chips couldn't leave the stack. I never even thought to bring it up.
I told him I regretted it turning out this way but that he would have to pick up from the game, pay me out and then come back 1 hour from now and buy back into the game. I suggested we both go and eat a nice dinner, on me of course. He said there was no way he could leave the game because he was stuck too much from the weekend and he was only playing another 4 or 5 hours anyway. He said he'd pay me out after he cashed out. We bantered back and forth on this topic a few times but I knew he wouldn't budge. I also felt that if I pressed the issue aggressively then he might not pay me at all. So I backed off and agreed to let him pay me out when he was done.
At around 6pm, his stack was ground down to less than $3000 so I pulled him aside and told him that we needed to settle up. He now explained that he was staked in the game by Frankie Flowers.
(cliff notes back story: 2 months ago I caught Frankie Flowers cheating in a 10/20nl game we were playing in. He was working with another player at the table to collude. I caught him in the act of doing so. The game was halted, floor was called and chaos ensued. Since that ordeal, he has openly told everyone who will listen how much he hates me)
He said that Frankie told him not to pay me a dime. He said that Frankie told him to f*k me over. Knowing Frankie's character, I found this as no surprise. He said he can't pick up from the game because Frankie had someone watching him. So again, with no bargaining power, I sat back down and waited, hoping he'd run up his stack and not go broke.
At around 9pm, he had his stack up to ~$7500 so I leaned over to him and said we had to do something. He threw me five $100 chips and said "take that for now. I'm picking up soon." I took it as an act of good faith and felt I may actually get the rest of my money now.
Well at 10:15pm he racked up his chips and picked up from the game without saying a word to me. I walked over near the poker room desk and waited until he came back from the cage. When he came back he told me he can't pay me anything at all because Frankie doesn't want to give me any money. After a long argument, I told him to forget it. I told him he doesn't owe me anything. He screwed me over for $2000. Congrats to him.
I walked over to Frankie's 5/10nl table, stood next to it and said "You don't owe me $2000 and neither does your friend. I'm done with both of you. You guys ran a good scam screwing me over. You can angle-shoot some poor kid out a 50k pot in the tournament today and then you refuse to play me $2000 that is rightfully mine. You can also cheat and collude in the 10/20nl game like I caught you doing 2 months ago. You can do all of that but right now I'm done with both of guys. You don't owe me anything."
He replied in front of the whole table and everyone else watching, "You know what I told him to do? I told him to f*k you over! I told him not give you a f*king cent. I told him to to f*k ya! How you like that?"
I didn't reply. I walked away from the table, ready to get my chips and leave when Villian in this whole ordeal came up to me and started yelling at me. He got right in my personal space, yelling obscenities at me, pointing his finger in my face. I didn't raise my voice or a finger at him. A minute later, security jumped in and separated us. I immediately walked over to the now-empty 10/20nl table and counted and racked up my chips.
A security officer approached me a few minutes later asking to go talk to his boss. I then sat down with 2 security supervisors who asked me to "start from the beginning." So I did. I retold the story 2 times, exactly how it happened. I tried not to forget a single thing. I told the story as accurately as possible and didn't embellish a single detail because I certainly didn't have to. How could I possibly be at fault? During my discussion with them, they kept asking me to describe the equity pot situation again. So I did. Two different times she said "you do understand that foxwoods doesn't allow these types of deals don't you." Each time I said "Yes I know but the floorman allowed us to do it on the side. Foxwoods didn't do the equity chop. We did it ourselves on the side because the floor manager told us we could do it that way."
After we were done discussing it, she said "This is what's going to happen. Because you did this equity chop and knowingly broke one of foxwoods rules, you are going to be banned permanently from foxwoods." I pleaded but obv to no avail. She took me aside and took my picture. She escorted me over the cage and my box so I could empty it. She then had a security officer escort me through the poker room and all the way over to the hotel where my bags were and out to valet. I had to sign documents stating that I won't come onto foxwoods property ever again or I'll be arrested. It was perhaps the most humiliating and unjust thing that has ever happened to me.
Over the past few days I've been working on gathering up information for a letter I am writing to get reinstated. The security supervisor told me it could be only 2 or 3 weeks. But I've heard it could be 6 months or more before I'm reinstated. I know of someone who was reinstated after 3 years. I'm writing that letter and also reevaluation my career options as well. I won't leave poker that's for sure. But I may be forced to go back to playing the back-room games around boston and play online once again.
Cliff notes: Don't make equity chops at foxwoods.
later,
HEK
*******
For quite some time now I've almost entirely stopped playing online poker. I've transitioned to a live pro with my play almost exclusively at foxwoods. I'm not a college kid. I'm 34 years old. I have a family. 2 kids, a wife, 2 dogs, a house, a mortgage payment. 95% of my income is derived from foxwoods and I would never EVER put my income and my ability to provide for my family at risk. That being said, here I am. Banned from foxwoods. For Life. Forever. If you love tl;dr stories, read on. I've explained how it happened with every last detail.
Last saturday Dec 20th around 4pm I was playing an 8-handed 10/20nl game at foxwoods and found myself involved in a pot with a guy who i've seen at foxwoods a couple times before. The pot was $1075 on a flop of 10
86. Villian open-shoved $2550 and I eventually called with AA. Before the dealer had a chance to burn the next card, my opponent asked if I wanted to "do business." As we both turned our cards face up (he held 79 for flopped straight) I explained that foxwoods does not allow running it twice but they will allow us to do an EQUITY CHOP. He said he didn't know what that was so i explained how we figure out the % is for each hand and chop the pot accordingly which completely eliminates the variance so neither of us has to play a 6k pot as almost a coin flip. I explained that it does not benefit either player. Using a poker calculator I have installed on my iphone, showed him it was 60/40 in his favor and explained that he would get 60% of the entire pot no matter what. In the middle of our discussion, I called the floor to make sure there wouldn't be any problems. The floorman who arrived said he had to check with his boss so he called over a floor manager. The floor manager's name is Michael and has a moustache but am unsure of his last name atm. The FM told us "We don't allow equity chops here but as long as you guys both agree then it's fine as long as you settle up the money on the side." That quote is VERBATIM. He explained that someone must be awarded the pot and that what we do after that is our own business. At this point the dealer was about to burn the next card so I stopped him and asked my opponent if he wanted to do the equity chop. He said "Yes." I asked him if he understood what it is and why we're doing it. He said "Yes." I asked him a second time if he agrees to the equity chop. He again agreed.
The turn and river bricked out so the dealer shipped him the pot. I walked over to his side of the table at the 1 seat. Together we calculated that $2470 was mine and the rest was his. He handed me that exact amount in chips. I walked over to my side of the table and placed the chips next to my stack when Michael the Floor Manager stopped me and told us that the chips cannot leave his stack. He has to pay me in cash out of his pocket. My opponent said he doesn't have any cash in his pocket and that everything is on the table. The floor manager never told us that the chips couldn't leave the stack. I never even thought to bring it up.
I told him I regretted it turning out this way but that he would have to pick up from the game, pay me out and then come back 1 hour from now and buy back into the game. I suggested we both go and eat a nice dinner, on me of course. He said there was no way he could leave the game because he was stuck too much from the weekend and he was only playing another 4 or 5 hours anyway. He said he'd pay me out after he cashed out. We bantered back and forth on this topic a few times but I knew he wouldn't budge. I also felt that if I pressed the issue aggressively then he might not pay me at all. So I backed off and agreed to let him pay me out when he was done.
At around 6pm, his stack was ground down to less than $3000 so I pulled him aside and told him that we needed to settle up. He now explained that he was staked in the game by Frankie Flowers.
(cliff notes back story: 2 months ago I caught Frankie Flowers cheating in a 10/20nl game we were playing in. He was working with another player at the table to collude. I caught him in the act of doing so. The game was halted, floor was called and chaos ensued. Since that ordeal, he has openly told everyone who will listen how much he hates me)
He said that Frankie told him not to pay me a dime. He said that Frankie told him to f*k me over. Knowing Frankie's character, I found this as no surprise. He said he can't pick up from the game because Frankie had someone watching him. So again, with no bargaining power, I sat back down and waited, hoping he'd run up his stack and not go broke.
At around 9pm, he had his stack up to ~$7500 so I leaned over to him and said we had to do something. He threw me five $100 chips and said "take that for now. I'm picking up soon." I took it as an act of good faith and felt I may actually get the rest of my money now.
Well at 10:15pm he racked up his chips and picked up from the game without saying a word to me. I walked over near the poker room desk and waited until he came back from the cage. When he came back he told me he can't pay me anything at all because Frankie doesn't want to give me any money. After a long argument, I told him to forget it. I told him he doesn't owe me anything. He screwed me over for $2000. Congrats to him.
I walked over to Frankie's 5/10nl table, stood next to it and said "You don't owe me $2000 and neither does your friend. I'm done with both of you. You guys ran a good scam screwing me over. You can angle-shoot some poor kid out a 50k pot in the tournament today and then you refuse to play me $2000 that is rightfully mine. You can also cheat and collude in the 10/20nl game like I caught you doing 2 months ago. You can do all of that but right now I'm done with both of guys. You don't owe me anything."
He replied in front of the whole table and everyone else watching, "You know what I told him to do? I told him to f*k you over! I told him not give you a f*king cent. I told him to to f*k ya! How you like that?"
I didn't reply. I walked away from the table, ready to get my chips and leave when Villian in this whole ordeal came up to me and started yelling at me. He got right in my personal space, yelling obscenities at me, pointing his finger in my face. I didn't raise my voice or a finger at him. A minute later, security jumped in and separated us. I immediately walked over to the now-empty 10/20nl table and counted and racked up my chips.
A security officer approached me a few minutes later asking to go talk to his boss. I then sat down with 2 security supervisors who asked me to "start from the beginning." So I did. I retold the story 2 times, exactly how it happened. I tried not to forget a single thing. I told the story as accurately as possible and didn't embellish a single detail because I certainly didn't have to. How could I possibly be at fault? During my discussion with them, they kept asking me to describe the equity pot situation again. So I did. Two different times she said "you do understand that foxwoods doesn't allow these types of deals don't you." Each time I said "Yes I know but the floorman allowed us to do it on the side. Foxwoods didn't do the equity chop. We did it ourselves on the side because the floor manager told us we could do it that way."
After we were done discussing it, she said "This is what's going to happen. Because you did this equity chop and knowingly broke one of foxwoods rules, you are going to be banned permanently from foxwoods." I pleaded but obv to no avail. She took me aside and took my picture. She escorted me over the cage and my box so I could empty it. She then had a security officer escort me through the poker room and all the way over to the hotel where my bags were and out to valet. I had to sign documents stating that I won't come onto foxwoods property ever again or I'll be arrested. It was perhaps the most humiliating and unjust thing that has ever happened to me.
Over the past few days I've been working on gathering up information for a letter I am writing to get reinstated. The security supervisor told me it could be only 2 or 3 weeks. But I've heard it could be 6 months or more before I'm reinstated. I know of someone who was reinstated after 3 years. I'm writing that letter and also reevaluation my career options as well. I won't leave poker that's for sure. But I may be forced to go back to playing the back-room games around boston and play online once again.
Cliff notes: Don't make equity chops at foxwoods.
later,
HEK
I then asked todd what is going on. He didn't know what to say. He thought they allowed an equity chop.I told him if I bust out I am not giving him money.I would never do any deal if that was the case. He agreed with me and said lets try to work something out. Now I am worried to get into any pots before I give him any money. A few hands later I flop a set. Long story short because I was worried about the chips I didnt bet enough to protect my hand and AK caught up with a one card flush.Now I am pissed off this is f--king up my entire game! After I lost that big pot I was down to my original 2500. I then told todd I would never have did and equity chop if foxwoods wouldnt allow it. This was all his plan and his deal. It makes no sense for me to do any deal if I couldnt pass over chips. Now my game is getting all messed up.
Now because I am a stand up guy I told him I will try to borrow 1000 cash to give it to him so we could end this and I could play my game. He agreed.
This is where frankie comes in . I busted out almost 20,000 in Blackjack that weekend. I was leaving the next morning. Frankie and me were talking and he offered to put me in the game for 2500. I agreed and we said we will split any profits equally.
So after my talk with todd I saw frankie and asked him to borrow 1000 to give to todd. He asked me why and I explained. He told me that I should have talk it over with him first before making any deals. I agreed and said it was ok I will give him a thousand out of my pocket. He then told me to give him nothing. That he falsly acused him of cheating for no reason and told me the whole story. (Now I know frankie for three years and I will personally vouch that he is a stand up guy. I know there is no way he would ever cheat.)
I then told todd the story but assured him I will try to pass him money from my stack. About a half hour later I passed him 500. I didn't want to do it again because I knew that it would get me into trouble.
I told him don't say nothing to frank because it is half his money and he didn't agree on any chop, plus the fact he dosn't like you for malking up lies about him.
At the end of the night todd asked for 500 more, I didn't want to pass any more chips. I told him hold on. I wanted to cash out and give him 500 in cash. I picked up and went to the cage when todd sent a pretty big guy after me. The guy told me that I should give him more money. This pissed me off because some one else was getting involved and telling me want to do. One thing led to another I could have sworn this guy said something out of line. Thats when me and him almost went at it. Todd then ran over and got in the middle of me and the guy. He then said forget about the rest of the money and started making a scene acusing frankie of cheating again.
This is when security and the gaming commision gave over.They asked what was going on and I explained the story.They then evicted me because of todds whole sceme. Saying I was part of his equity chop and becase I gave him 500 in chips makes me guilty also.
Now I am banned from foxwoods because of todd!
01-12-2009
, 08:26 AM
01-12-2009
, 08:51 AM
