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I always shove in these spots, is this bad? I always shove in these spots, is this bad?

09-27-2010 , 03:19 PM
villain is 10/6/4 over 130 hands.

BTN: $5.00
SB: $6.11
BB: $1.18
UTG: $5.37
UTG+1: $3.40
UTG+2: $5.41
Hero (MP1): $5.00
MP2: $2.98
CO: $2.87

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is MP1 with A K
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, 3 folds, SB calls $0.18, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.45) 7 Q T (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.25, SB calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.95) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.95) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $0.60, Hero raises to $4.55, SB calls $3.95

The reason I always shove in these spots is simple. If I raise smaller villain may just call with hands that he would also call a shove with (like trips or a lower flush). Not only that but if we raise a smaller amount and villain shoves I am probably not folding. Therefore by raising smaller I am winning less when I have the best hand but losing the same when I have the worst hand.

Sounds like it makes sense. But the reason I am posting this question is because I am losing count of how often I shove in spots like this only to find that I am beat. In this hand I had the nut flush but when I shove here with a lower flush I am either beat by a FH or a higher flush.

I am really supposed to bet/fold here or is the fact that villain has a higher flush or full house here so often just me running bad?
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 03:26 PM
Yes it's wrong. It's too much. If he doesn't have a FH he can't call, if he can call you're beat.

Paired board makes me want to take some pause at least. Shove flop is better IMO
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 03:27 PM
Bet bigger on the flop. In general, I think our plan should be to barrel just about any turn, but I think that non-club 8's, 9s, and maybe 6's are fine to check back some of the time. River raise size should be a size you think he'll call with KQ/AQ/KK+. You don't want to narrow his range down to boats. (he can't have a better flush)
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 03:30 PM
It's player dependent, but when a set mining nit calls your C-bet on a wet broadway board, they have a set. I'd still probably call that river bet just in case they got crazy with JJ or something, but shoving here is pretty bad. Against a lot of players I would like it because they can call with worse flushes, straights, etc. but against this player it's just bad.
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapidEvolution
Bet bigger on the flop. In general, I think our plan should be to barrel just about any turn, but I think that non-club 8's, 9s, and maybe 6's are fine to check back some of the time. River raise size should be a size you think he'll call with KQ/AQ/KK+. You don't want to narrow his range down to boats. (he can't have a better flush)
While I normally agree with you, I think this player has a set here pretty much always and is most likely going for a check raise on the turn. Yeah, I know it's horrid on this board, but he's a 5NL NIT, what else can you expect?
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 03:50 PM
Shoving there is really bad. Only flushes and fullhouses will call. A 10/6 set-miner has a far higher chance of having a set in this situation as you hold the suited ace that matters in this situation. So there is basically a 1% chance he has a worse flush than yours. So shoving here will only get fullhouses to call. Fullhouses beat you. Do you see the problem? You don't have the nuts here and these types of players typically only bet and/or raise when they have the nuts.

Crappy situation, but definitely don't go overboard with that shove.
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabadu
Yes it's wrong. It's too much. If he doesn't have a FH he can't call, if he can call you're beat.
I dont think nl5 players are folding any flush or trips here, maybe some will call with AQ/KQ.
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stranglylucid
It's player dependent, but when a set mining nit calls your C-bet on a wet broadway board, they have a set. I'd still probably call that river bet just in case they got crazy with JJ or something, but shoving here is pretty bad. Against a lot of players I would like it because they can call with worse flushes, straights, etc. but against this player it's just bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapidEvolution
Bet bigger on the flop. In general, I think our plan should be to barrel just about any turn, but I think that non-club 8's, 9s, and maybe 6's are fine to check back some of the time. River raise size should be a size you think he'll call with KQ/AQ/KK+. You don't want to narrow his range down to boats. (he can't have a better flush)
Ok, this hand was a bad example because of how nitty villain is. Usually they have like 20% vpip.

Say villain is an AVERAGE nl5 player (my database shows that average nl5 stats are 20/8/2) then is shoving here ok?
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green_29
I dont think nl5 players are folding any flush or trips here, maybe some will call with AQ/KQ.
Ok then it's not wrong .... whatever.
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Green_29
I dont think nl5 players are folding any flush or trips here, maybe some will call with AQ/KQ.
I doubt it. A river raise, on a paired, flushdraw board ?
Insta-mucking my top 2 pair to be honest
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 05:46 PM
Grunch: setminer always has it here tbh - just call otr. Against a typical 5nler, this would probably be a shove but set miner - no way.
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote
09-27-2010 , 05:47 PM
If you think the villan has more ranges of hands you beat in his range that will call a raise on the river then you should raise. If not, then fold. This is so villan dependent that an "average player" is pretty much useless.
I always shove in these spots, is this bad? Quote

      
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