I'd call too if his range were exactly {AA}, but the problem is it's wider than that. You won't always stack AQ on a T94 board etc etc.

Well, clearly, but I'd still call regardles...the frequency at which people call a cbet, and float a turn with ace hight, not to mention stack off with top pair is so great, it makes a call very very profitable.

Ok, I do it sometimes expecting to be 3-bet (FPS). As played, I fold...

Well, clearly, but I'd still call regardles...the frequency at which people call a cbet, and float a turn with ace high, not to mention stack off with top pair is so great, it makes a call very very profitable. (if we flop a set)

I think we can open up his range a little bit more, since you think he's a standard 25nl guy. 3betting the button raise seems common.
Some guy that made a 50nl video somewhat recently said that when he opens a small pp on the button and gets 3bet by a blind, he usually just mucks, because they don't often enough have a strong enough hand for you to stack 'em when you hit a set. I think it was bigbabyjesus.
If you know he's only 3betting with big pocket pairs, or easily commits to almost any made hand, then it might be profitable to call.

Yeah open limping this on the button is bad. It's much better to raise because you will often get a call and then take the pot down with a c-bet when you miss.

However, say someone with a short stack limped in front of you. Then you might want to overlimp just because your implied odds are bad, and they are more likely to play back at you with any piece of the flop including bottom pair. Here's an excerpt from nextgenneo's 6max preflop basics article:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ad.php?t=89764

And I think I've seen Taylor Caby overlimping pockets vs. shortstacks for the same reason too.

What does this mean?

This is a fold. He doesn't even have 10x his raise behind him, you can't make a +EV play here (except maybe shoving, but thats another story), so just fold it and wait for a better spot. If he had a 100 bb stack, or larger, I'd call this for sure. Also if he was the biggest NIT you've seen you might call this since you're sure he has a monster hand.

But this isn't exactly terrible either. Terrible is calling that raise when your opponent has a total stack of 10$.

In the event that we do flop a set, our c-bet will get called A LOT of the time by villains with just ace high. I see it all the time. It's sick. They call a c-bet with intent of hitting their over card (ldo). Not to mention the times the flop is A4x, we're almost always making good money here. I play LAG, and like to take a lot of flops with pocket pairs. If his PFRR was larger, to $5, I'd probably fold.

Example:

Calls two 2/3rds bets with nothing...(granted he picked up a NFD on the turn, but still...)

Full Tilt Poker, $0.15/$0.30 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $59.30
BTN: $30.20
SB: $58.95
BB: $107.95
UTG: $19.65
Hero (MP): $60

Pre-Flop: Q Q dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $1.05, 2 folds, SB calls $0.90, BB folds

Flop: ($2.40) J 3 7 (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.60, SB calls $1.60

Turn: ($5.60) 6 (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50

River: ($12.60) A (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Results: $12.60 Pot ($0.60 Rake)
SB showed A Q (a pair of Aces) and WON $12 (+$5.85 NET)
Hero showed Q Q (a pair of Queens) and LOST (-$6.15 NET)

Edit to add: DaGrunt, you think this is horrible because you play very very tight. For a player with a looser image, this is standard. Neither is right or wrong. Just saying...

This doesn't make any sense. If we bet the call the preflop 3-bet we won't c-bet, he will. And if we call for set value we will need him to stack off close to 100% which an unknown obv won't on average.

I understand what you're saying. However, most unknowns at 25NL will stack off with TPTK. We're calling $2 to win $20. This is fine. I think some of you play too tight preflop. Any 30/20 (myself) is calling here...

There's no right or wrong answer here. Folding is just as fine as calling.

Chances of you hitting a set while he hits TPTK are about 1 in 30. So the more unpaired hands you include in his 3b range the worse your call becomes (unless of course you can indeed outplay him on XXX all larger than 4 flop (which is what most of the flops are going to look like).

I think there's a lot of over thinking going on in this thread. This much discussion for such a standard, normal spot...

Sorry, I meant to say: If we call the preflop 3-bet we won't get to c-bet the flop, he will.

And yeah, you're getting about 10:1 implied odds (at best) and the odds for flopping a set and it being the best hand and hold up is about 10:1, so we need him to stack off about 100%, which won't happen.

There is a correct answer - and it is to fold.

This is clearly extremely flawed logic.

+1

yes. fold to 3bet u dont have odds to setmine

It is indeed a standard, normal spot for folding. Here's a link for detailed discussion:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...rt=&PHPSESSID=

i think i'm gonna give up on trying to explain the idea that we don't lose 100% of the time that we don't flop a set.

if you wanna be more successful at poker, call, and learn to play 44 after the flop -- whether or not you flop a set.

You're 100% right. It's just that most of the people here (including me) can't play small PPs postflop without a set, meaning that we expect to lose more money when playing them not exclusively for set value.

i skipped most of the thread, but i always fold here... if he was like 120bb deep id call. but not if hes only got 20$

Yeah, clearly. What I'm saying is we can't set mine, and it's not close. If you you want to try to call and then try to outplay your unknown and slightly shortstacked opponent in a 3-bet pot then go ahead. It's not good poker, that's for sure.

It's not 100% correct. We'll have a very hard time outplaying our opponent, his range crushes us (we're almost a 2:1 dog preflop) and we have no read.

This is a clear fold. Pls explain what flops you are playing back at and how?

Also, for those in the fold PF camp where do we draw the line for folding? 22-77?