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GTO / Solver tools pros & cons?

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09-18-2019 , 07:44 AM

Yeodan

Micro NLHE Coach

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 3,621

Which tools do most of you use and what do you like and dislike about them?
Have you used any other tools?
Which one would you recommend to a micro player?

GTO+ looks interesting because it's cheap
Piosolver looks very good, but it's expensive and looks complicated.

Anyone using these with some tips?
Any other recommendations?

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09-18-2019 , 07:56 AM

I_NUK3D_U

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 231

https://fivebooks.com/best-books/cop...elizabeth-day/

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

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09-18-2019 , 08:06 AM

Minimal23

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 389

Not being funny, but you definitely don't need a solver to beat 2nl. And everything I've read suggests that using one would be counterproductive in terms of opportunity cost. The time spent using a solver could be spent elsewhere learning a basic grasp of theory and going over spots that trouble you.

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09-18-2019 , 08:41 AM

DooDooPoker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

Solvers help so much. It is pretty much your own personal coach for $75.

I started using one in February of this year and even though I am still at 10NL. I've gotten a lot better + higher WR.

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09-18-2019 , 08:46 AM

Yeodan

Micro NLHE Coach

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 3,621

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

Solvers help so much. It is pretty much your own personal coach for $75.

I started using one in February of this year and even though I am still at 10NL. I've gotten a lot better + higher WR.

So I assume you use GTO+?

Let's not make this thread about if they are useful or not please.

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09-18-2019 , 08:47 AM

Minimal23

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 389

Okay fine. PIO edge.

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09-18-2019 , 08:53 AM

Iblis

veteran

Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,361

Yeodan finally succumbing to GTO dark forces.

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09-18-2019 , 09:00 AM

Yeodan

Micro NLHE Coach

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 3,621

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimal23

Okay fine. PIO edge.

Yeah that one is not in my price range.
If I get PIO I'm going for basic, which is already expensive.

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09-18-2019 , 09:08 AM

FazendeiroBH

self-banned

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 2,514

GTO+. Not a solver, but I used pokersnowie for about a year, and my fundamentals are based on it. Biggest help to my game, and while I´m still grinding 5nl, it improved my game quite a lot. Obv you need to be able to adapt to how uNL really plays, and it took me a long time to learn this

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09-18-2019 , 09:14 AM

#10

kewl_cph

adept

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 753

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

Solvers help so much. It is pretty much your own personal coach for $75.

I started using one in February of this year and even though I am still at 10NL. I've gotten a lot better + higher WR.

At least you seem to have a solid grasp of the game but hellbent on a mission to push the limits of bluffing.

I just can't see how a player that has demonstrated time and time again that he lacks understanding of fundamentals could even input anything into a solver that would give a meaningful solution.

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09-18-2019 , 09:16 AM

#11

2019fish2019

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,412

Learn proper ranges first

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09-18-2019 , 09:17 AM

#12

kvnd

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,290

Don't get a solver for 2nl

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09-18-2019 , 01:32 PM

#13

DooDooPoker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 19,699

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewl_cph

You might right. Monker Ranges could be more important than a solver initially.

Preflop is the most important street.

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09-18-2019 , 01:43 PM

#14

FreakDaddy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 19,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewl_cph

They can't.

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09-18-2019 , 01:51 PM

#15

FreakDaddy

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Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 19,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

You might right. Monker Ranges could be more important than a solver initially.

Preflop is the most important street.

I'm curious, what do you think you learned that helped you the most?

My personal conclusion after playing with a solver was - now I understand better that if you hold a suit that blocks your opponents bluffing range, a solver will want you to checkraise those ranges more. Any other scenario shouldn't really be that surprising if you have some playing experience.

I didn't find as much value as other people seem to be finding.

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09-18-2019 , 02:19 PM

#16

kewl_cph

adept

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 753

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakDaddy

My personal conclusion after playing with a solver was - now I understand better that if you hold a suit that blocks your opponents bluffing range, a solver will want you to checkraise those ranges more.

I'm not sure I understand that. Why would you check-raise more into a range that has less bluffs and thus more value combos?

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09-18-2019 , 02:20 PM

#17

Zuko

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 2,356

You most likely would want to start with Pokersnowie because it has preflop advise for any situation (since i know your lack of preflop fundamentals) and then of course solid advise for postflop. Learning with it is also not as time consuming as using a solver. Setting up Sims proper and running sim can take a lot of time.

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09-18-2019 , 02:21 PM

#18

Yeodan

Micro NLHE Coach

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 3,621

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuko

Thanks! I'll look into that!

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09-18-2019 , 02:23 PM

#19

Zuko

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 2,356

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewl_cph

I'm not sure I understand that. Why would you check-raise more into a range that has less bluffs and thus more value combos?

we raise in a lot of situations to apply pressure to the weaker "value" part of a range. More bluffs = more polarized. we raise less vs polarized ranges because we want to keep the bluffs in and keep him bluffing

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09-18-2019 , 02:23 PM

#20

Yeodan

Micro NLHE Coach

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 3,621

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuko

Is the intermediate sub fine or does the pro sub offer way more value?
Don't really understand the difference ...

Pro has Hand range and Range advice, no clue what that means.

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09-18-2019 , 02:23 PM

#21

Yeodan

Micro NLHE Coach

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 3,621

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuko

This just mind****ed me lol

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09-18-2019 , 02:24 PM

#22

kewl_cph

adept

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 753

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuko

Cool, that makes sense.

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09-18-2019 , 02:32 PM

#23

WorldzMine

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,604

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeodan

Is the intermediate sub fine or does the pro sub offer way more value?
Don't really understand the difference ...

Pro has Hand range and Range advice, no clue what that means.

The free preflop adviser would probably be enough. Snowie breaks down postflop especially after the flop because it's sizing options were limited. Why they haven't fixed that after years of it existing is weird.

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09-18-2019 , 02:32 PM

#24

Zuko

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 2,356

Quote:

Originally Posted by kewl_cph

Cool, that makes sense.

Also a reason why we 4bet a bit less IP vs a BB resteal compared to vs a SB resteal. SB resteal are usually 100% linear while BB resteals are supposed to be more polarized. When we 4b vs BB he has easy folds with his bluff part and easy continues with his value part. SB does not have so many "easy" decisions. he has many hands he really does not want to ship and really does not want to fold. (if Villain actually has a calling range in the SB that means he is probably 3 betting polarized and we want to 4 bet less but in theory SB should not be cold calling vs a steal.)