Good spot to shove?vs 2fishy Villains? - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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Good spot to shove?vs 2fishy Villains?

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04-03-2012 , 07:43 AM

YOZAN

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 255

MP...60hands 75/26 F23b60% / DonkBet 35 /AF 3.57(OTF 4) / AFq 60
CO...50hands 52/8/ 3b 4 / Sq 0 / AF 1,63 /AFq 30

On Game, $0.15/$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $40.44 (134.8 bb)
BB: $16.61 (55.4 bb)
Hero (UTG): $30.86 (102.9 bb)
MP: $19.62 (65.4 bb)
CO: $17.39 (58 bb)
BTN: $30 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9

Hero raises to $0.90, MP calls $0.90, CO raises to $1.50, BTN folds, SB calls $1.35, BB folds, Hero calls $0.60, MP calls $0.60

Flop: ($6.30) 5

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets $3.15, CO calls $3.15, SB folds, Hero raises to $29.36 and is all-in, MP calls $14.97 and is all-in, CO folds

I don't worry to much when MP leads on that flop because I have reads V will do that with any pair+GS,TP ,also this guy has the habit to slow play big hands(sets,OP)
CO is also a big fish,when he call OTF I think he would do that with O/C,any GS,any pair etc

I want to know your opinion.
Which is the +EV play in this spot....TNX!

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04-03-2012 , 07:52 AM

AreYouForReal

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 324

This is a weird one... IDK... I guess I probably 4bet pre some of the time to his WTF 3bet and try to squeeze them and fold to a 5bet and stack sizes kinda suck for it too full stacked i may try this... This seems kinds gross though but I could see myself trying it in game.

As played I probably fold the flop. Yes the cut off can be wide when he is calling but he is only 3betting 4% and only raising 8% he is WAYYYY passive this makes me think he has a hand. Even vs his 4% range and limited hands I just fold the flop. Calling pre is probably fine trying to set mine vs his WTF 3bet..

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04-03-2012 , 08:04 AM

digitalanarchist

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 676

Quote:

Originally Posted by AreYouForReal

I guess I probably 4bet pre some of the time to his WTF 3bet and try to squeeze them and fold to a 5bet

that's not a good ideea at all here, judging by Villain's type.
raising here in 3way is not a good option after initial raiser called.
i would go for call (given the odds) and evaluate the turn,or fold flop.
it depends a lot on your dynamics atm, CO is a calling station but seems passive, he can call flop w.AK-AQ or slowplay monsters.

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04-03-2012 , 08:09 AM

YOZAN

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 255

Regarding Villain's stacks...Let's say I choose to call(3way),and an A hits on the turn???
I think in this case I AM BURNING MONEY CALLING OTF and FOLD OTT..
There are so many bad cards for my hand that could HIT OTT...

SO call pre/ call flop / fold turn is the best line

?
call pre... fold flop when initial agressor calls donk bet fired by aggro?
What if CO folds to Donk?is ok to shove vs MP?

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04-03-2012 , 08:09 AM

AreYouForReal

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 324

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitalanarchist

that's not a good ideea at all here, judging by Villain's type.

Yeah I agree it would just be so weird... I back peddled there at the end of it... I also always like to squeeze as the PFR though... LOL. Probably not the best idea, but something I could see myself doing...

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04-03-2012 , 08:14 AM

AreYouForReal

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 324

Quote:

Originally Posted by YOZAN

I think calling here would be bad... Fold>>>>>>>>>raise>>>call

But you are talking about very specific A cards OTT we have 9's more often than not the turn card will be an under card to our 9's with ONE card OTT. 3 way like this anything below your 9 is bad though also either makes hands or adds equity to hands they have in most cases. 10's and J's are pretty safe Q's are not bad A's and K's are scare cards yes A's more than K's but still not terrible.

If CO folded this FAR closer to a shove and possibly even +EV..

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04-03-2012 , 09:17 AM

IvanSH

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 289

Lead and see what others will do.

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04-03-2012 , 09:31 AM

Coacaza

newbie

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 46

I'd fold flop - by elimination - raising is spew and calling puts us on weird spots OTT and OTR
Fish will offer you massive edges in the future - no need to settle for less.

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04-03-2012 , 11:21 AM

Bartlett

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,907

The flop raise is terrible.

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04-03-2012 , 12:31 PM

#10

epix-

adept

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,066

im very scared from CO´s minraise. most of the times these minraisers show up with QQ or similar strong hands. i dont know why he folded to your shove, maybe he just had AQ/AK.
after CO calls MP bet his line looks like a high pair to me. you might fold out what he actually had AK/AQ, but everything else will get you

i would check/fold the flop because of CO (im scared, even if its a fish i dislike the minraises so much). we probably beat MP range but i wouldnt mind, letting 5bb slip away and play it save

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04-03-2012 , 12:38 PM

#11

Fooka

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 220

4 bet pre - don't like the jam- so maybe a raise to like 11- check check most turns.. to set up a nice pot size jam on favorable river cards . Just my thoughts

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04-03-2012 , 04:31 PM

#12

YOZAN

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartlett

The flop raise is terrible.

So fold is best here?
Afraid of CO range?or?

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04-03-2012 , 04:38 PM

#13

Bartlett

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,907

Quote:

Originally Posted by YOZAN

So fold is best here?
Afraid of CO range?or?

I didn't say fold. Call and see a turn. If he has, say, AK, he might give up on a blank turn. Obviously the risk is getting outdrawn, but when you shove there you just fold out his bluffs and he's probably not calling with anything you beat.

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04-03-2012 , 05:21 PM

#14

YOZAN

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartlett

Yes I understand your toughts.BUT I can't see calling here as a option.
And pay attention to special reads,the guy who leads is an AGGRO MONKEY,I am not afraid of his range.
AND PreFlopRaiser calls in mw pot (this seems weak IMO)

They aren't full stack,so calling to see a turn seems really BAD to me.
And one more thing,If I post a hand doesn't mean I lost it

...
Just want to hear other opinions,TNX!

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04-03-2012 , 05:24 PM

#15

YOZAN

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 255

Quote:

Originally Posted by epix-

im very scared from CO´s minraise. i dont know why he folded to your shove, maybe he just had AQ/AK.

Exactly....he calls in mway pot after he 3 bets,I was thinking about AK,AQ,AJ.
And the aggro villain like I said could hold TP,any P +gutshot ,77,88.

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04-03-2012 , 06:05 PM

#16

AreYouForReal

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 324

Quote:

Originally Posted by YOZAN

Exactly....he calls in mway pot after he 3 bets,I was thinking about AK,AQ,AJ.
And the aggro villain like I said could hold TP,any P +gutshot ,77,88.

CO has a 4% 3bet. AJ is not in his range and not all AQ's are either. This is what a 4% 3bet here looks like 99+ and AQs+ and AKo... vs that range on this flop we are a 64/36 dog. Though PP's in that range are less likely I would agree but even fish know they can slow play this flop with a big over pair. I will admit I'm pretty nitty and can see a call as an option but just think we are making to many bad decision on the turn and river to make it +EV 3way like this.

A raise can not be good though as others have said.

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04-04-2012 , 02:43 AM

#17

YOZAN

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 255

I agree with you that fish players 3b only for value,so is true.
But even a fish(pasive) can min raise O/P in mway pot...

AND yes regarding what you all write here "shoving" here seems pretty bad...I don't like to call,so FOLD is oke and find another spot to stack him.

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04-04-2012 , 08:40 AM

#18

epix-

adept

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,066

im not concerned about MP at all. im only really scared of Cutoffs minraise.

everytime i see a minraise the guy shows me the nuts, 2pair, set and upwards. preflop i only see really strong pairs and maybe AK/AQ. a guy with this stats fits perfectly into this category.

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