Ok, the reason for this thread is that yesterday I dropped 6BIs at the exact same scenarios at 25NL.

Raising with QQ, getting 3betted by TAGish villains with very low 3bet % and flatting them ip or oop. (I think that's irrelevant given that on baby rainbow flops the monniez are going in either way).

Rainbow baby flop comes bet/raise/reraise AI/call and I hit walls (KK, AA).

How could possibly a BI b saved on baby flops?

Ps. Somewhere in a guys avatar it said: QQ 4bet/ fold, save yourself an buy in!

run better

I believe this was a joke...the user made an avatar because it made him lol. If your going to 4bet your going to stick it in plain and simple.

Weird I saw this post. Lost five buyins today with.QQ when i was ahead pf lost to straights, sets, and donk 2pairs. **** fish

I also have a question that is semi related to this topic. Do you think is is more profitable to 3bet a 22/15's ep\mp raise with QQ in mp\lp or to just cold call. I have run into this situation a number of times and was looking for some feedback from the community.

I like a mixture of both tbh, kind of depends a lot on who is left to act after you. For example, if there is a serial squeezer behind you I'd flat it and back raise his squeeze.

Against a nits UTG raise I think flatting QQ from any position is better than 3betting just because I don't want to be 4bet and it keeps some dominated hands in his range, this play does make for some pretty difficult post-flops situations though so beware

Thanks Prodigy, initially I had a tendency to 3 bet this is every situation, but lately I have made it more situationally depend as you suggest. If you do decide to 3bet and get 4bet do you ever call or perhaps push. I know it depends on the opponent but against which stats would you make each decision?

The more aggressive an opponent the more likely I am to 3-bet get-it-in QQ...

it also depends on any meta game you have with this opponent. Have you been 3-betting him a lot etc the more you 3bet the more likely they are to 4bet etc. obv this is player dependant, some people start 4betting you after 2 3bets which is quite funny but others take a while to 'adjust'.

Also position means quite a lot, as a rule of thumb I would 3bet QQ from the blinds against a LP raise 100% of the time and more often than not shove to a 4bet. Blind vs LP I get QQ aipf against most opponents.

if u put him on AA,KK then fold pre

if u put him on AA,KK,QQ,AK,one or two combos of air then 4bet/call

no need for anything else under 100nl imo

^good advice. Not useful advice though. "Fold if you think he has you crushed" lol.

^yah fair enough

my next statement would be

'i assume all regs 3bet QQ,AK,AIR sometimes unless proven otherwise overlong sample'

Pretend you have JJ instead.

Go from there.

except that you beat jj

this has been posted a million times.

theres almost no one only 3betting QQ+. if u have thousands of hands on someone, studied their game, and know 100% those are the only hands they 3bet, then just fold pre.

against everyone else u can 4bet/call.

I dropped quite a few buy ins to this the other day as well. I've made the following rule for myself which I feel that will save me some money.

If I get 3-bet by someone running 20/17 or below and haven't seen them 3-bet much, I'll flat them and see how I do on the flop. If it is a baby rainbow I'll lead off with a bet, but if he's calling then I feel that I'm pretty much beat. If he re-raises or shoves then I'm definitely beat. I've ran into AA and KK so many times in this situation.

I don't know exactly why you are raising a "baby flop" but not 4-betting pre. =)

Figure out if villain is shipping in monies with AK, once you've figured that out it's a simple 'run good' scenario.

Against tag fishes I've noticed they prefer flatting with AK when facing a bet from UTG or UTG+1, so if a tagfish 3bets you against your utg open, I might consider mucking the QQ just because you are generally behind at that point against their 3bet range. COvButtonvBlindvBlind I never fold QQs though, I've seen tagfishes stack off with small pps otb against my blind 3bets many, many times.

this sounds about right actually. I'd much rather 4b/call AK than QQ if I am utg facing a 3bet while oop because of blockers and only being in terrible shape vs. AA. some players are incapable of 3bet bluffing an UTG raiser short of a squeeze situation.

Actually, pokerstove says QQ>AK vs a range of QQ+, AK, which is reasonable for TAGs to stack off. Difference is very minimal, though, .5%. The reason why I 4b/call with QQ, AK is that there's usually enough dead money in the pot to justify it. Any comments on pot odds?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

575,334,144 games 0.749 secs 768,136,373 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.594% 19.26% 20.33% 110831016 116968584.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 60.406% 40.08% 20.33% 230565960 116968584.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


297,940,896 games 0.395 secs 754,280,749 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.207% 38.35% 01.86% 114253440 5540034.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 59.793% 57.93% 01.86% 172607388 5540034.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

So with that PS, lets just call it 60/40 against us when they call. So if we are 100BB deep open UTG to 3x vs BTN 3bet to 9x we need them to fold to our shove 52% of the time. QQ+ is top 2.6% of hands so they need to be 3betting around 5.4% for us to shove profitably.

If we open to 4x he 3 bets to 12x(17.5x pot) we need a fold 43% of the time. again 2.6% of hands is his calling range to shove profitably we 3bet % of 4.56%. Please note this is only if you believe they only call with QQ+.

If you think he is such a nit and only calls our shove with KK+ in the 17.5BB pot we need a fold 78% of the time, but he only calls with top .9% of hands so if he 3bet more then 4% of the time it is profitable to shove. In a 13.5BB pot he needs to fold 82% of the time or be 3 betting 5% of hands for our shove to be profitable.

I think my math is good but please correct if its wrong. Also not this is not the % of time your 4bet has to be successful it is the % of time it has to be successful if you 4 bet shove.

It's been months since I've done the math but I remember you needed about 50% FEq exactly to 4bet/call it off vs a tight range.

If we have AK, then he needs to 3-bet 4.2% accounting for blockers to 4bet/stack off... it's 5% for QQ.