You would never check fold flop.

Range advantage is turning into one of those words that no one understands but everyone uses.

I would check/fold 33 on the flop all day.

Plenty of better hands in my range with which to continue.

But if your savior..ahem, excuse me...solver tells you it's okay.

That is not a real reason.

The concept of "finding a better spot" doesn't exist. It's a human idea. We only have this spot, right now, that's it.

Calling is positive EV (as well as some XR's). Folding is 0 EV. So we call.

Just calculate the minimum amount you need to defend to prevent villain from profitably betting any two cards and you'll see where I'm coming from.

I get your point though because if we are check calling with 77 then 33 is basically the same (although we unblock some of villains draws which almost makes it better, but I digress).


My point here is that your hand does not block any hands in villains calling or raising range. The reason we donk is because sometimes the board hits our range so hard that it is an opportunity for us to profitably bluff as well as get value from parts of villains range that would prefer to check back.

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You are talking about MDF which is just pot/pot + bet size.

The reason we donk is because it is higher EV to donk. That's the only reason to donk. This may manifest itself with certain hands we donk to get value from and also certain hands we donk as a bluff but it just comes down to it being more profitable to do this.

When certain flops/turns/rivers peel off - and those cards are much more advantageous to your range. You have a donk lead spot. The reason why no one knows how to donk lead properly - is because no one knows their own ranges and their opponent's ranges well enough to be able to do it consistently.

Folding flop here is ludicrous

Also minimum defense frequency is a nice concept but it doesn't exactly map to how the game works, because in some flops you are going to have good EV with a bunch of your range and in others you're going to have very terrible EV with most of your range and you are going to have to overfold no matter what

this hand for donk still iffy tho but y'all just throwing words around without good reason.

I disagree with "finding a better spot" not being a thing though, if you're playing to win $ per hour and not per hand, which I guess would be the most logical thing, then some hands could be so marginal that moving on to higher EV spots quicker could make you win more money at the end of the month, still, I think calling 33 here is printing money

Yeah MDF doesn't take into account board textures. It's a loose guideline at best.

A lot of people on this forum have been throwing words around you can tell they don't fully understand.

I agree completely with your explanation of why we donk bet.

Now, from what hands are you expecting to value in this specific spot?

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I'm also including myself in people who don't know how to donk lead properly. Apparently this is not a good donk lead spot.

Lesson learned.

Over folding happens and not just exploitatively, but because as you said its just higher EV.

However, in this specific spot when you take into account reverse implied odds it's not absurd to fold. If it was a BTN open then maybe?

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My mistake in this hand came on the flop. We should be donk leading this board at a very high frequency (especially the non combos) because there are very few run outs where we will realize our equity.

Can also check-raise flop.

Once we get to the turn - donking is not good.

This is not a good flop to donk because we dont have enough strong hands in our range.

The turn is a much better card to donk.

Check raising and donking with our hand are both bad because if we get called there is essentially no way we can improve and now we've made villains range stronger...not a good combo.

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Just solved flop just in case I'm talking out of my ass and 33 is actually folded at a small percentage, and EV margin is really small so I stand corrected on being a super good call, still a solid one

x/r is a thing actually with these hands at a small freq, you get called by a bunch of fd,sd and some few overcards+you fold out a lot of hands that have good eq, with a heart it would do a lot of x/r

from what i solved donk flop is meh on this flop, mainly not a thing

It is a good flop to donk.

We have more low suited cards in our range and Villain has more high offsuit cards. We also have a more condensed range because we will 3bet a decent % of our hands - which makes our range have less combos in it. That also reduces our air.

This means a higher % of our range will connect with this board - which means we should donk lead at a decent frequency.

Turn is not a good donk lead spot because Villain should check back this flop very often so his cbetting range will be strong - so when he does bet we are donking into a stronger than normal range.

It is counter intuitive. What do you think the best turn card for us is in the big blind here? It's an Ace. You would normally think of the PFR wanting Aces because he was the aggressor but the way ranges work is that Cutoff should be checking back a lot of his Aces so when he does bet he won't have many Aces in his range.

Conversely, BB (us) should be calling the flop with a ton of Ace highs. So now when an Ace comes on the turn - it paradoxically favors our range more than the pre flop raiser range

So this is a range donk then? I really think I just created that term....

Calling with 33 is +EV when villain bets their entire range.

You know what other hands are also +EV against villain's entire range?

A2o-A5o, Q5o, Q7o, Q9o, K4o


Now clearly we wouldn't have these hands in our range, but if we did, would you consider calling with them to be printing money?

I'm just going off based of 1. my experience playing and 2. what solver says
seems to be a good enough call, although by calling always i'm probably being imbalanced also no, villain is not betting entire range on solver, we are calling against a polarized range

apparently if the turn was an 8 it would be a correct range donk

gotcha

i was just using snowie's CO range.

what range are you giving villain for cbetting this flop?

on the flop? no i have it at around 35%@1/4 sizing.

This hand in particular should be donked around 70% of the time because there are no good run outs for it. Less so with the combos.

As far as good turn donks.

All 8x are close to range donks, 7h is around 50%.

Ironically the best card for our range which is an Ace (no flush). Never donks the turn.

Didn't give him a cbet range he's just doing his thing, mainly good equity bluffs and value/protection

For some reason my sim isn't donking the flop almost at all , that's weird

I guess that makes sense. It keeps you from fit-or-folding with every small pp, especially on flops like this that you can have nuts or draws. I just prefer my bets to have equity (besides fold equity).

So anything between a 4 and a 9 get's donk at least 25% of the time.

Highest donks are 8x
Then 7x are all 40%+ frequency
The lower hearts like 9h/5h/4h are all around 30-35%
4x is around 25%

Don't donk any 2/3/T/J/Q/K/A turn.

It's a lot to remember so my new heuristic is that I am allowed to donk at around 50% frequency when the turn card could make a straight with the cards on the board.

The 2 and 3 are too far away and A/K/Q/J are too far away the other way.

What sizing are you using for donk leads?