COTW of the day: aggressive calls - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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COTW of the day: aggressive calls

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11-01-2009 , 04:32 PM

pokor playar

centurion

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 180

Sometimes I hear people say that in some situations, calling is stronger than raising, like flatting a squeeze play or something. Can someone please explain this? Thanks

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11-01-2009 , 05:35 PM

yz10andy

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,233

Pretty sure they are leveling.

Or that I just got leveled.

Regardless doesn't it sound bad to rep a strong hand with a strong hand when flatting a squeeze? You can't exactly flat air with multiple left to act... At least with a re-raise you can look like you're bluffing.

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11-01-2009 , 05:49 PM

DDAWD

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 6,879

Quote:

Originally Posted by yz10andy

That's why calling is a strong move. It depends on the person doing, the calling, though. A good opponent, though, is showing that he likes his hand enough to stick with it. That's why the call bluff can be useful, especially against someone who likes to c-bet

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11-01-2009 , 05:55 PM

RapidEvolution

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,932

Let's say you raise to 4BB UTG...MP1 makes it 13 and the BB (who is a tight, aggressive player) flats. When he calls pre, we should be concerned. He's not going to flat a small PP here because your UTG raise looks strong and MP1's 3bet looks even stronger. Many players will flat KK+ here because they think QQ/JJ will be more likely to come along (and get stacked postflop). If you're UTG and get 3bet by MP1, and then cold 4bet by the BB, you're not continuing without KK+ (and against some villains, not even with KK)

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11-01-2009 , 06:01 PM

yz10andy

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,233

Quote:

Originally Posted by RapidEvolution

In this spot though no matter what BB does it's super obvious he has a monster.

I guess I worded my post wrong because it seems really really obvious to me why flatting in OPs scenario is horrible.

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11-01-2009 , 06:11 PM

Oooooooo

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 380

The term is a misnomer. Calls are NEVER an aggressive action.

I believe people that use this term just mean a specific form of slowplaying. You would like to raise but instead you decide to call, perhaps because you don't want to polarize your range or because you believe villain cannot call a raise. So you take a passive action--calling--as a deceptive play.

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11-01-2009 , 07:08 PM

pokor playar

centurion

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 180

I blame starscream for the squeeze example.

here is another one...

Hero is SB with KK

MP1 bets $1, Hero raises to $4.00, MP1 raises to $8, Hero??

if i raise here and he only continues with QQ+ isn't it best to call?
if i flat here, lol im flatting a 4bet OOP, and puts me on KK anyways.

I already know YZ10andy's (future durrrr) thoughts on this :-x

and yes im this bad at poker.

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11-01-2009 , 07:10 PM

Joopjan

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,996

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...equity-519245/

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11-01-2009 , 07:18 PM

starscream1101

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,908

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokor playar

LOL blaming it on me...haha....pokor playar then wanted a COTW on flatting vs. raising and I suggested he start a thread.

Here's the hand in question...we were discussing the merits of flatting or raising the squeeze in the uNL Chatroom (AIM)...

UTG is 63/13 8 hands
I'm UTG+1 ldo running about 15/13 on that table at the time.
BTN is 20/13 over 675 hands
BB is 29/21 over 28 hands....so pretty much unknown

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer
SB ($49.50)
BB ($50)
UTG ($37)
Hero ($50.75)
UTG+2 ($86.45)
MP1 ($50)
MP2 ($37.55)
CO ($64.65)
BTN ($50)

Dealt to Hero A

UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.50, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls $2.50, fold, BB raises to $8, fold, Hero.....

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11-01-2009 , 07:37 PM

#10

yz10andy

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,233

Looks like a cooler waiting to happen and we have AA. Ship it in. Sometimes you get into reg wars when you're iso-ing a ton and start to get 3bet a bunch, but considering positions and the overcaller it looks like BB wants to build a big pot rather than pull some FPS OOP with an "air" type hand.

I guess I'm thinking about a way different spot than the actual hand.

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11-01-2009 , 10:02 PM

#11

jowr

adept

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 755

Tomorrow we feature the passive raise.

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11-01-2009 , 10:12 PM

#12

brocksavage1

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Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,587

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joopjan

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...equity-519245/

This about sums up the topic. Another great topic is aggressive checking, but we'll leave that for other people to write about.

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11-01-2009 , 10:16 PM

#13

DEK

adept

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,131

Aggressive calling is when you use the telephone to call someone (it could be a friend, or maybe a business) and when they pick up and say "Hello" you say "**** you" and then you hang up while fist-pumping.

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11-01-2009 , 10:17 PM

#14

starscream1101

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,908

Quote:

Originally Posted by yz10andy

No need to worry about what *I* did....I made it about $20...and he folded, but I wanted to talk about hte merits of flatting. I mean I do have AA....what flops am I really worried about? Probably only a Q or K high flop. I"m only gonna slow down if they both land the flop. Is there merit for finding out if this unknown will hang himself post flop? Just a curious spot...I think anyways.

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11-01-2009 , 10:18 PM

#15

Oooooooo

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 380

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joopjan

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...equity-519245/

Quote:

Originally Posted by brocksavage1

This about sums up the topic. Another great topic is aggressive checking, but we'll leave that for other people to write about.

The article you refer to does not mention the term "aggressive calling" at all. The article is about playing passively to not reduce the opponent's (misguided) aggressiveness.

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11-01-2009 , 10:30 PM

#16

brocksavage1

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Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,587

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oooooooo

The article you refer to does not mention the term "aggressive calling" at all. The article is about playing passively to not reduce the opponent's (misguided) aggressiveness.

That is aggressive calling. You're calling and allowing the opponent to stay aggressive instead of raising and narrowing his range.

BTW, I'm serious about aggro checking. It's a real topic.

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11-01-2009 , 10:41 PM

#17

JH1

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,301

Aggressive flop call for spazz equity vs reg as per Joop's link?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $100.00
Hero (UTG+1): $100.90
UTG+2: $19.50
MP1: $49.90
MP2: $142.30
CO: $104.55
BTN: $52.65
SB: $100.00
BB: $35.55

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG+1 with 8

UTG raises to $3, Hero calls $3, 7 folds

Flop: ($7.50) 8

(2 players)
UTG bets $4, Hero raises to $14, UTG raises to $24, Hero calls $10

Turn: ($55.50) 6

(2 players)
UTG bets $25, Hero raises to $73.90 all in, UTG calls $48 all in

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11-01-2009 , 10:42 PM

#18

venice10

Referee

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 26,097

Even with this small sample, I'd raise starscream. He's not folding any of his 3 bet range.

While you're not folding if you call due to SPR, you want to make sure he feels the same way. A nice CiB raise makes it a PSB on the flop to get it in. Even if an ace shows up, you want him to feel pot committed. He'll only have to be right 1 out of 3 times to call. Sure, you'll have QQ here enough.

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11-02-2009 , 10:15 AM

#19

KurtSF

Lucky Number Seven

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 16,471

*grunch*

There is no such thing as an aggressive call, by definition. Some silly poker player once mentioned how she made an "aggressive call" in an interview, so the term is a kind of inside joke around here. If someone says "xxx made an aggressive call" its like saying "xxx is bad at poker".

But the idea that a call can sometimes be stronger than a raise, yeah, true. Often a med strength hand will want to isolate one player by raising and improving its equity, but a super-nuts hand will call multi-way because it can handle more action.

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11-02-2009 , 10:24 AM

#20

KurtSF

Lucky Number Seven

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 16,471

Ah, I found the original source. Vanessa Rousso, not in an interview but defending her play here at 2p2. 3rd post on this page:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...umber=10844984

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11-02-2009 , 11:21 AM

#21

DDAWD

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 6,879

Quote:

Originally Posted by KurtSF

Ah, I found the original source. Vanessa Rousso, not in an interview but defending her play here at 2p2. 3rd post on this page:

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...umber=10844984

Wow, that thread turned high schoolish in a hurry.

Although that was a VERY impressive laydown of her trip aces.

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11-02-2009 , 12:16 PM

#22

SammyG-SD

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Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 12,600

wouldn't it be COTD?

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