Ya u played that hand pretty well.

great post.

When explaining to my friends how to crush the micros, I will definitley point them in this direction. Great work, well written..

****WARNING THIS THREAD GIVES TERRIBLE ADVICE, THIS IS SIMPLY A PLOY TO MAKE YOU PLAY BAD AND LOSE MONEY.

MAKE BIG BLUFFS AND SLOWPLAY HANDS.

please delete this thread...please! please! PLEASE!

Not a very good example of when to call and fold pre-flop though.

calling with an 89s in SB isn't really thaaat wrong, but that's an other discussion maybe

Teddie has a point. It's a hard hand to play with those SS's and being first to act and all. I wouldn't do it.

Thank you!!

Against a 40bb stack, calling oop is really thaaat wrong.

O right, didnt see stacksizes, Im thaaaaaaaat sorry

This is why I don't make strat posts.

Don't remember if I noticed SS at the time. Although if I did I probably wouldn't raise shortie for fear of 4 bet shove. I love seeing the flop in this spot. I play bad.

Please don't highjack cuddles thread - sorry if I derailed things for a bit.

This discussion about 89s and blah blah is exactly why when people post stuff like this (a very well put-together guide) no one should worry about the games "getting tougher". TWM's decision to call there is likely based upon a large number of factors that are practically impossible to discuss - the key to becoming a good player is understanding all of these factors, and how they work into the hand. I don't give a **** about stack sizes or bull**** like that. There are so many reasons that I might make that call vs a 40bb stack. My past few days when I upp'ed my number o' tables from what I had been doing recently has only highlighted this to me - it hindered my ability to think, which is always our greatest tool - and no guide is going to magically give that ability to a new player.

That said, while it is well put together and I didn't read every bit in the greatest detail, it doesn't appear that any of this information is alarmingly new - it's just more nicely put together. Any starting player will surely appreciate this, and it's nice to give back to a community that has helped you to develop.

When someone can easily explain to a new player when it is appropriate to 4-bet bluff pre, and suddenly this new player can effectively utilize this skill without being a spew-tard, I'll be worried.

(on that note, within the next few weeks, I'll be writing a guide about 72o 4-bet bluffing and takin teh stacks)

So what are you saying in a nut shell is basically stack sizes is "bull**** like that"?

I'm saying that it isn't a criteria which solely influences my decision, which mogwai was implying. Keep in mind, this guide is for teh micros, which technically 50NL is considered to be a part of, even though this guide primarily addresses 25NL and under. As cuddles notes, this won't really help with 25NL+... however, the hand and players addressed are 50NL+ regs.

Other factors I would consider:
Is this a reg 40bb stack (meta-game implications)?
What is his image of me for this session?
What do I think his range is?
What do I think he thinks my range is?
How aggressive has he been in this position? Is he positionally aware?

Etc etc...

Point being, no factor in isolation dictates whether a play is correct or not. We may all generalize about "zomg standard plaiiizz", but that doesn't make them correct.

And please excuse my cursing - I've lived as a sailor for over 30 years.

If you want to start a different thread for discussion of that hand, I'd be glad to comment further, but I don't want to continue to derail this one.

No, I don't, for the points that I've already raised (read: this thinking is developed, essentially from the fundamentals that cuddles is addressing here, and primarily, experience).

I don't think we are "derailing" anything. I was commenting on the impact of this guide on our field of competitors - it's related to the thread. I was considering the hand within that context. The guide can't explain why making a call like TWM may be a fine move with the information provided, and personally, I don't think making a guide that could is desirable or helpful.

The guide can't explain it, because it is not true. Yes, there are many factors we need to consider in poker, but this is an extreme case where one factor completely overshadows all the others. It doesn't matter what villain you choose, you cannot profitably call in that situation (short of something completely unrealistic like "villain shoves flop if he has the nuts, otherwise he open-folds" or "villain only raises 32o preflop"). It's a simple math problem, you do not have the correct implied odds. You could come up with a villain where 3-betting would be profitable there, sure, but not calling.

Again lets get this back on track. I really don't want to hijack thread

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe that math always dictates play.

I offered to move it, and DEK declined. I'll stop posting about it now. But I didn't want people who are reading this thread for its good advice to be misled by incorrect information.

Sorry for nitpicking the hand you posted, the point was certainly not to say "TWM sucks!" it was to point out the important stack size / implied odds issue to the newbies reading this thread, because it's something that a lot of people have trouble with when learning no-limit. It takes people a while to realize that stack size is the most important thing in no-limit holdem.

yes this is besides the point!

Should we make a new thread?

Thanks for taking the time to write such a nice post. Nicely done.
:-)

Sure, let's make a new thread.

I'll start the thread.