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Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot

10-02-2008 , 05:07 AM
I've not been at the table long so there is no history to speak of.
$50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $52.30
Hero (UTG): $57.05
CO: $86.10
BTN: $49.50
SB: $69.40

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is UTG with 8 8
Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BTN raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero raises to $21, BTN calls $14

Normally I would fold to the 3bet, but I use an alarm clock to randomise my play, and the second hand was in the zone where I get out of line, hence the 4bet. His call is interesting. I put a UTG raise and a BTN 3bet on similar ranges, but as he didn't 5bet I'll put QQ-AA and AK on a discount, and place him more likely on TT-JJ, suited connectors, or a few dafter hands.

Flop: ($42.75) 9 K 4 (2 players)

I've invested heavily, and I don't think there is much chance of getting to a showdown for whatever value my pair might have. I decide to represent the K.
Hero bets $36.05

I'd be glad to get feedback on my play and thought processes.
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-02-2008 , 05:15 AM
Did you used to play tournaments? Man this seems like an old fashion tournament play. Anyway I absolutely do not like it. By four betting here you have committed yourself and are praying you get shown AK here. Flop is interesting. I would probably shove and pray. But I do not like it. I just hate 4 betting then check/folding. I would almost rather have had you just shove pf.
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-02-2008 , 05:30 AM
That's because harrington used to do something similar. I don't think you need to do it at these limits though balancing isn't hugely important. In generally you want to bluff with weaker hands not ones that have some value. Having said that if button is a solid player I probably just fold it oop. Unless you can 4 bet for value if he's some maniac.

As played just shove it and hope he folds smaller pairs than a K probably all ya can do?
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-02-2008 , 05:43 AM
What's the purpose of your 4bet? I'm not saying it's bad but are you doing it for value or as a bluff? 42bbs is huge for a 4bet here - you're committed to calling a shove.

As played I would be completely lost on the flop after he flats (lol) your 4bet. No idea what I would do w/o history - but generally you want to have a plan for the rest of a hand when you choose to 4bet in 100bb stacks.
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 04:35 AM
Thanks for the replies, friends, which are all well considered and helpful. It is true that I got myself into a tough spot here, and the whole thing seemed a bit fish-like. 88 should be folded to a 3bet normally, but I do think there is a case for some slight use of balancing even in this spot, and at these levels. That's probably a controversial opinion, and the subject for another thread. Anyway, I only do this one time in thirty that it arises, and that feels like often enough.

JsTs, you're absolutely right that there should be a plan in place before you bet. Too many people make it up as they go along and then can't figure out what happened. My plan here was the following:

Plan A: He folds to the 4bet.

Plan B: He 5bet shoves, I call.

Plan C: I shove any flop we see.

Somewhat crude, but this is no place for subtlety
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 04:39 AM
There's absolutely no need to balance play at microstakes. At least, not when the balancing is this expensive. If that particular opponent pays close attention to what you're doing, leave him alone and pick different opponents.

Once you've made the 4-bet, you may as well follow through with the flop shove, but there's no guarantee you're going to make even a pair of queens lay down, and you're not chasing off an ace-king.
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 05:08 AM
Generally 4betting someone light that just 3bet an utg raiser is a bad idea, and without any history it's probably a really bad idea.
Like jsts, I'm also lost on the flop, and reads on the villain would be great, unfortunately you don't have any.
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 07:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDone
Generally 4betting someone light that just 3bet an utg raiser is a bad idea
yeah thats the main fault i guess.
when you decide do represent a bigger hand by 4 betting you have to shove the flop.
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 07:31 AM
The problem with choosing 88 for a 4 bet bluff hand, or even a 3 bet bluff hand, is that you get into a lot of situations where you're forced to turn your hand into a bluff and have very little equity when called. If you are 4 betting 88 I would only do it vs/ a complete nutjob who I think will get it in with a wide enough range...which will usually not be the case since it is not the widest 3 bet bluff spot for Villain because you raised UTG. A better 4 bet bluff hand would be Axs or maybe a suited connector if you are out of position(if you are in position it is better to flat the 3 bet and try to outplay Villain) This way you can easily fold if he shoves and you'll have decent equity in many pots where you're forced to shove.

You pretty much have to shove most 4 bet pots because they're so large. If it is a hopeless flop for cbetting and you have little equity when called then you could give up...but in most cases you have to hope he was calling for a safe flop and stick it in
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeth
There's absolutely no need to balance play at microstakes.
this^^^^
you've seen too many highstakes movies imo
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 10:58 AM
50nl games are different now. There's a ton of 3betting between regulars that I think you need a balanced 4bet range of bluffs and nuts.

Your play here is very expensive with your intentions. I think $15-$17 sizing is better here.
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JsTs
50nl games are different now. There's a ton of 3betting between regulars that I think you need a balanced 4bet range of bluffs and nuts.

Your play here is very expensive with your intentions. I think $15-$17 sizing is better here.
I'd kind of agree CO v BTN (BTN v SB/BB has some other options with position). If he's a reg who likes to 3-bet light, then won't he at least recognize that OP's UTG range is tighter. This is also the 1st time he's been 3-bet.
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 11:18 AM
your crazy...
i like it
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote
10-03-2008 , 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VillainUnknown
I'd kind of agree CO v BTN (BTN v SB/BB has some other options with position). If he's a reg who likes to 3-bet light, then won't he at least recognize that OP's UTG range is tighter. This is also the 1st time he's been 3-bet.
Totally agree.
Bluffing with mid pair in 4bet pot Quote

      
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