The recent thread from Craigus89 made me think about blind defense in general. I play 5NL and I fold a lot to bind steals. 69 from the BB and a staggering 84 from the SB. Currently I'm losing 29 bb/100 from the BB and 18 bb/100 from the SB, which I think is not terrible. 30k hands in total, so I don't have big samples in the blinds (less than 6k hands for each blind position).

I know blind play becomes more important at higher stakes, because always folding the BB equals to -100 bb/100 in that position.

But.

Not many villains at 5NL adjust their opening ranges according to position. The worst ones have the exact same PFR in all positions. If they adjust, it's not a massive difference. The more competent villains (stuff like 28/23 or 24/20) may increase PFR to 30 or 35 from the button. When I see 40+ attempt to steal, it's usually from the bad kind of spewfish.

In general, I have some kind of success against the more balanced people. I know they can fold to a 3-bet and I also know they are not going to spaz out if they miss the flop.
But villains with a wide stealing range generally don't have a fold button at this level, so 3-betting to take down the pot preflop looks like a losing proposition.
So it comes down to calling with a wide range (I'm talking BB now) and playing an entire hand oop against people who cannot fold their second pair with no kicker. Creative play is suicide here, it's all about value-betting them when I hit something.
In general, do i really want to see a flop with Q5s or or A6o, as suggested by preflop charts in BB vs BTN (and it's not even the bottom of the suggested range)? Even if villain is opening with 45% of his hands, are those defenses really profitable?

In my very limited experience so far, I found myself in trouble more often than not when I tried to defend with marginal hands.
But on the flip side, I'm afraid I'm going to develop very bad habits if I neglect this part of the game too much. It may not be extremely relevant at 5NL, but it will be important at 50NL.

I know it's a bit of a ramble, but I'd like to talk about blind play in general.

If I was only losing 29bb per 100 and in bb and 18bb per hundred over a significant sample I wouldnt be changing anything I do in the blinds.

How much are you 3b from SB v BTN open and how much are you calling and 3B from BB vs SB open?

If it's not broken, don't fix it, right? I agree. But I think this could make me develop bad habits that will be very exploitable when I move up in stakes.



SB vs BTN open: 3-bet 8.3.

BB vs SB open: call 29 and 3-bet 4.7. I try to adjust this to villain's stats, but I suspect it's too tight overall.

It is. SB 3B v btn open should be around 16% at least 12%. BvB BB 3b should be much higher like 15% and calling range should be 40% or so. You can use GTOWizard ranges to fix this leak.
Also on NL5 pretty much nobody defends BvB correctly, so you can OR 70%+ from SB vs most opponents.

at the micros your BB defense should be contingent on your postflop edge. The more you have, the wider you should defend up to ridiculous extents.
If you're an average dude trynna make it probably best to play tight/approved

Perhaps this will require a database of more than 30k hands but you can also check the winrates of hands from the bottom of your defense range.

For example, set filters in the software:

Hero on BB & Faced steal from BU & Hero not fold.

If you have some groups of hands with a winrate less than -100bb/100, then you probably shouldn't defend those hands, and if a winrate is higher, then maybe you should expand this group.

You can't develop good habits at nl5 that will work just as well at nl50. And many nl50 habits won't help you at nl5.
Each limit will have its own adjustments and what worked well at one limit will no longer make sense at another.

The best thing you can do on nl5, which will help you in the future, is to learn how to quickly identify and exploit opponents' leaks.
Looking at your SB and BB winrates, you're not bad at it.

Thanks for the input.
Here is an example of a typical table. I have trash players highlighted in green so I can immediately see them when I open the table.



Both players A and B are terrible in general.

Player a attempt to steal is 32. Nothing crazy, but it's wider than his average of 21. But he doesn't fold to 3-bets (0), so unless I have a very strong hand, I think 3-betting light is just torching money here. And he also C-bets almost always (86), so I can't give him any credit there. This encourages me to call him very light. Overall, it looks to me like I'm bloating a pot with marginal hands against a player who isn't really capable of folding.
My adjustment is to tighten up and play strong hands only, but the result is a very tight blind play.

Player B is similar. Doesn't fold to 3-bets, so I'm doing it with strong hands only. But this one c-bets way less frequently, so if he misses the flop I can take down the pot on later streets.

Probably I'm overthinking all of this and this part of the game will gradually evolve while moving up the stakes.

Slyless, thanks for the filter tips. I did hero VPIP on BB when faced a steal. It's a very small sample (313 hands total) so far but I will look into it. I'm surprised it's THAT small, but I guess there are very few "clean" steal spots with all the limping going on. Samples of specific hands are insignificant, but I will group them in categories.

To say that 40+ attempt to steal is usually spew fish is probably not right. 40% from the BN is pretty standard and if BN is tight we should open our BN range from the CO as well.

Don’t be afraid to 3 bet players w a 40% ATS. That is exactly who we should want to 3 bet, even if they defend too wide. Maybe especially if they defend too wide.

I'm not saying 40+ steal is spewing. But at this level I've noticed a high steal % is usually found on the bad kind of loose players. The ones I want to have position on.
I'm aware it's probably a mental thing, but all I see is:
- ok, this player is running all over me in the blinds
- I need to start 3-betting wider
- he doesn't fold to 3-bets
- he also doesn't fold to c-bets
- now I'm oop in this bloated pot.

You should be the one stealing with wide range. If he dose not fold to 3b you can 3b wider for value or/and with bigger sizing. You can also play standard 3b range until you get good at playing 3b pots oop.

Don't think about it as "3 betting light." Think about it as 3 betting for value.
Versus Player A, who raises 32% from the BN and defends w 100% of his range, what hands can you 3 bet for value?

I like to think of it as Carroter describes it in his Grinder's Manual, and that is that a 3 bet value hand is a hand that has positive equity versus your opponent's 3-bet-calling range or defense range.

This guy that you describe, he defends against your 3 bets with 32% of all hands, so you can 3 bet for value with at least the top 16% of hands as a starting point, and that is just your 'value' 3 bets, then you can add 'light' 3 bets aka 3 bet bluffs if you want to.

You should 3 bet wider versus someone who over defends, not tighter because there are MORE hands that have an advantage versus your opponent's wide defense range, not fewer hands.

You are getting confused about the distinction between POLAR and LINEAR ranges. If your opponent is more likely to call, then your range should be more linear. And vice versa, if opp is more likely to fold to your 3 bet, then be more polar. If you don't understand this, then this would be a good subject to study (polar/linear ranges and constructing ranges, etc.)

Your idea to call him more/wider, rather than 3 bet more, I don't like so much, because basically you will be playing even weaker hands (with a reduced range advantage), out of position, without the initiative and versus a fairly loose and aggressive opponent. You KNOW he is going to C-bet. It is going to be hard to win money with this set up.

I understand the temptation to "tighten up and play strong hands only." Understand though, that this is just going to encourage players to open-raise you more. 40% open from the BN is pretty standard, but against tight blinds, most good players start raising 50%, 60% and just ATC when they aren't getting any resistance.

This is an easy thing to study and fix and put into practice. There are numerous resources to turn to. Carroter's Grinder's manual is just 1. Also, my opinion, being properly bankrolled makes it easier and less stressful to incorporate 3 betting into your game. Good luck.

Magnum

Thanks a lot, I appreciate it.
I'm playing 5NL with hobby money, so the bankroll is definitely not an issue.

I think it boils down to my general approach. I'm winning 9 bb/100 with a nitty 21/16 game, so my brain is happy with this conservative style. I'm well aware I'll need to loosen up significantly when I'll move to higher stakes, even more so in the blind game.

Now that you have explained it, a 16% 3-bet range makes perfect sense against this player. When you put it this way, it becomes super obvious. But 16% is my entire PFR range averaged on all positions, so it will require a significant leap of faith to gradually incorporate it into my game.

Downloaded Clarke's grinder manual. Can't believe a 600-pages book of this quality is free in Kindle format.

It is a great book. You'll like it. It is pre-GTO, or like pre-solvers I think. These days it is pretty easy to get ranges from different sources. GTOWizard and others come highly recommended and are used by plenty. These ranges have a lot of advantages but I still also like the Grinder's Manual because I think it is important to try to understand why we are supposed to do certain things. This book explained a lot of concepts in a way that I could understand.

Another thing you might like and might be helpful in this context is an APP on smartphones called PokerCruncher-Advanced. You can compare range to range equity and range to hand equity. So for example if you estimate that the villain is holding the top 10% of hands and you want to know what equity TT has versus that range, or 99 or 88, you can plug those hands in and find out. Or, range to range, you can calculate your equity when holding a CO range (25%?) versus your opponents EP range (8%). You can also put board cards out and determine equity.

Nice thread OP!

Commenting to sub so I can learn a thing or two..