Hypothetical situation (that I've run into quite a bit this morning).

100BB Effective stacks.
Folds to the CO (15/8/3 over 100), who raises 4xBB.
You 3-bet to 12BB with KK, he calls.
Flop is A-8-3 rainbow.
You lead for 1/2 the pot, he raises/shoves, you?

Check call a better line here? I hate folding in spots like this, but I hate spewing with big pairs too.

I had the exact same situation as this before and elected to check call to the river. Villain ended up rivering their straight and i kicked myself for not raising the flop. I wasnt paying attention to the fact that villain may have had something other than the ace. So i think leading flop is probably the best move as it provides an almost definite answer to whether they have the ace or not. My 2 cents.

What is your position?

I would lead for 3/4 pot and fold to shove. A 1/2 pot CB in a 3bet pot looks weak IMO.

Check calling is bad IMO...you are OPP and will have no idea of where you stand in the hand.

It's unfortunate but not much you can do. Most of your money will be made while playing IN POSITION. Try to limit your losses when OOP. Especially with KK on an A high flop vs a villain who is willing to play for stacks.

what most ppl do wrong in 3b pots is always CB. consider checking once in awhile to mix ur range up, which generally opens up theirs. u shud check AK as well as JJ sometimes on these kinds of flops (especially flops that are so clean).

i disagree about CBing 3/4...this is one of those sizing issues that most FR's get from their old 6max game. Yes, keeping ur bet sizing consistent (u prolly CB for 3/4 most of the time anyway) is good for covering ur range up...but think about what it accomplishes... dude is never gonna bluff raise u here (if he does, its pretty LOL cuz hes doing so in borderline committment pot). so if we size our CB down a bit, we gain the same value from it (the times he folds) + a little more when he calls the smaller bet with a hand we beat (QQ/JJ for 1 street)...and if we size the CB to 3/4+, then we lose more when we are behind, and never fold out better hands.

see where im goin here?

Oh sorry, somehow I forgot to put that in. Hero is SB or BB.

you make some good points...but!

when OOP i want to figure out where i stand as early in the hand a possible. this is a situation where squeezing out value from QQ/JJ is difficult IMO...say you CB 1/2 pot and get called...T bricks and checked around and R bricks...what do you do?

when in position there are merits to not cbetting...if MP raises and I 3bet from button my Cbet is stat/read dependent...if he is a set miner i am more inclined to follow up with cbet...

this is a good discussion...but i still stand by my cbet flop...

1.) can we both agree that we are *never* gettin bluff-raised on this flop? (assume its such a negligable ammnt that we dont bother factoring it)
2.) if yes, we can bet whateva we want here. so long as it appears we are veering towards the commitment threshhold, we can bet/fold.

3.) in ur example about 1/2PSB CB, if turn is checkd thru, and river bricks, check cuz he wont bluff QQ/JJ now. hell knock a hand with SD value. we already built our value, and gettin value after the flop will b to the point of almost -EV
4.) it is doubtful he is setmining here unless u always spew-stack off with an overpair here (even still, good chance if hes a tru nitsetminer...he will never go past the grey-zone of the 5/10rule). so this is more a hand of big pf hands.

also, ur comment is semi-problematic. i believe Proofrock sed it best when he said "bettin for information is wrong 99% of the time". we are betting here for semi value, and semi block (we set the price here with our CB...which is why we should heavily consider weening it down cuz we arnt gonna CB/commit)


(nothing here is meant to come off as insulting)

I am not insulted one bit, in fact I appreciate the discussion. I am here to learn and discuss hands, theory, strategy, ect.. I hope you do not take offense to any of my comments as that is 100% not my intent.

Comment 1) I agree
Comment 2) I agree
Comment 3 and 4) Do you think that a thinking player will read your flop CB, T & R checks as a hand like QQ or KK and bet weaker hands knowing that you are afraid of the A?

Also, there was no information about player type. I mentioned set mine but I have seen villains call with hands like 45s+,suited one gapers and PP when in position vs a 3bettor from the blinds. Not saying that this is a sound strategy but narrowing the villains range to QQ or JJ based on calling a cbet has flaws.

Back to our original discussion of 3/4 pot size CB vs 1/2 post size CB. If I am villain I am more inclined to float a 1/2 pot size CB than a 3/4 pot size CB. Especially with all the light 3betting that is going on these days from the blinds.

The main question that would help us both is...Does CB size impact what hands the villain calls with? I believe it does. He is less inclined to float a larger CB IMO, therefore, a larger CB has the potential to end the pot now rather than put you to a tough river decision.

On a Q high flop are you CBing 1/2 pot as well? or will an observant player notice that you CB smaller when scared and bet 3/4 on more favorable flops? This is bad IMO.

The main reason I brought this question up is that specifically on ace high boards, you are getting floated almost never after 3-betting from the blinds, unless villain really has a laser read and is going to bluff you off a higher pair. C-bet > call = they have an ace most of the time, the other times they have something like a mid to high pair (say 99 thru QQ) that you currently beat, but are too stupid to fold it yet. C-bet > raise = ace or better like every time.

If I check and he bets, how much of his range includes pairs that I beat? Does this number significantly increase when compared to the number of pairs I beat in the c-bet > call line?

I think it depends a lot on how many bets you think villain will want to see with something like QQ. My default is 1 here and I think beating him in and setting the price at 1/2 pot is the best way, as SS suggested and I'll do this most of the time. If he calls and then fires either street, I think the likelihood he has QQ is so low that we can fold. The rest of the time I'll check the flop and turn and lead river. Again, I don't think QQ/JJ want to see to bets here, but will probably be willing to call one modest bet on the off chance that you're bluffing.

(ps...only made the "no insult" comment to ensure that there is no e-peen swag going on. =) )

i think the major fact that we are missing here is player type. i went by the average spot i see in my game (100nl on FTP), and i would only assume that your statements are a function of the game you play. we obvi would need to have the play type hammered out before we can figure out the pure optimal line.

u mentioned u wud b more likely to float a 1/2PSB v 3/4PSB. but what kind of float? there are 2 types of floats in this case

1.) a value float. u call for 1 street knowing villian wont dub worse hands and ur not puttin a another dollar in the pot v. pressure
2.) a steal float. u call here to take away if villian checks.

again, we would need player type to know what to do on floating. but i think more villians will value float with QQ/JJ here (an they should at least some of the time if they are gonna flat a 3b pf IP). which means we gain value when we bet, but might/prolly wont get that value if we 3/4. i say this cuz a 3/4 is pretty much pushin the commitment threshold which means ppl wont call worse hands, and narrows their calling and action range to hands we dont beat.