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AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z

06-14-2017 , 04:23 PM
Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $52.24
Hero (SB): $51.27
BB: $45.48
UTG: $63.53
MP: $25.25
CO: $25.58

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with Q A
1 fold, MP raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.72, 1 fold, MP raises to $5.50, Hero calls $2.78

Flop: ($11.25) 8 6 K (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $3.76, Hero calls $3.76

Turn: ($18.77) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $15.99 all in, Hero folds



Should I just fold to the 4bet pre? AP flop seems like an easy call and turn seems like an easy fold.

No stats or reads on villain at the start of the hand.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-14-2017 , 04:32 PM
i would prob just fold to 4bet pre yep

agree with postflop but just fold to 4bet
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-14-2017 , 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkby
Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $52.24
Hero (SB): $51.27
BB: $45.48
UTG: $63.53
MP: $25.25
CO: $25.58

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with Q A
1 fold, MP raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.72, 1 fold, MP raises to $5.50, Hero calls $2.78

Flop: ($11.25) 8 6 K (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $3.76, Hero calls $3.76

Turn: ($18.77) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $15.99 all in, Hero folds



Should I just fold to the 4bet pre? AP flop seems like an easy call and turn seems like an easy fold.

No stats or reads on villain at the start of the hand.
Readless/statless definitely folding PF OOP. Against some OPs you can flat IP. AP looks fine OTF and turn.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-14-2017 , 06:28 PM
Snap folding pre. Postflop is probably fine as played.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 01:10 AM
If you fold this preflop, you're probably overfolding.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 01:23 AM
Ott, this is the best blufcatcher in our range, so it seems weird to fold it.
I think we have to call, if we expect him to not 4b AKo most of the time.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
If you fold this preflop, you're probably overfolding.
Really? AQo is the bottom of my value 3b range SB vs MP and it's so hard to play OOP in a 4b pot. Interested to know others' thoughts on this.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 05:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
If you fold this preflop, you're probably overfolding.
It's probably fine in these positions at $25nl.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikk
Really? AQo is the bottom of my value 3b range SB vs MP and it's so hard to play OOP in a 4b pot. Interested to know others' thoughts on this.
this, we don't need to go linear in the SB v MP open given that BB will be facing a strong opening range often with few steals.

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AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 11:19 AM
I never said that we should be 3betting linear (even though AQo seems a bit linear tbh).

But, if your value 3betting range is [TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+], and you fold AQo, AJs, KQs to this small 4b, you can have pretty much no bluff 3b range, or you're overfolding for sure.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
I never said that we should be 3betting linear (even though AQo seems a bit linear tbh).

But, if your value 3betting range is [TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+], and you fold AQo, AJs, KQs to this small 4b, you can have pretty much no bluff 3b range, or you're overfolding for sure.
i agree, which is why I somewhat disagree with the 3bet in the first place vs. an MP open, but OP went for the infamous valuebluff. I think when you do things like this you need to define your range better @ op. like you shouldn't have to post if you fold to the 4bet here because your range should be well defined as "here I 3bet as a bluff, and will fold to a 4bet" and "here I 3bet for value and plan on calling/shoving over a 4bet", etc.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
If you fold this preflop, you're probably overfolding.
False.
Fold pre is fine and completely standard with these positions IMO.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
Ott, this is the best blufcatcher in our range, so it seems weird to fold it.
I think we have to call, if we expect him to not 4b AKo most of the time.
Sorry man but calling turn is atrocious.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karrlitos1
Sorry man but calling turn is atrocious.
So, you'd only call turn with a flush? That's like 2 combos
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 02:46 PM
I'd just coldcall the 2Bet PF and play from there. 3B is probably ok, but I think we get more value by flatting. Would never 3B/call here. That's really bad. Good fold OTT.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 02:47 PM
If I was MP here, my range ott would be something like: KK, AA with no spade, AKs, AsJ (50%)

AQ has over 30% equity vs this range, so I don't think call is that bad.

It's possible That I'd bluff even a bit wider, since I don't expect SB to have AK often, so he'll overfold probably.

Last edited by ZKesic; 06-15-2017 at 03:03 PM.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
If I was MP here, my range ott would be something like: KK, AA with no spade, AKs, AsJ (50%)

AQ has over 30% equity vs this range, so I don't think call is that bad.

It's possible That I'd bluff even a bit wider, since I don't expect SB to have AK/KQo often, so he'll overfold probably.
Even if MP 4bets AQo and AJo at a 100% freq and then bluffs flop and turn with AsQx and AsJx, we still have not enough equity considering he probably jams OTT with KK+ and AK. So it's not even close.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rewdzx
this, we don't need to go linear in the SB v MP open given that BB will be facing a strong opening range often with few steals.
So you have a calling range in SB vs UTG and MP opens?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
But, if your value 3betting range is [TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+], and you fold AQo, AJs, KQs to this small 4b, you can have pretty much no bluff 3b range, or you're overfolding for sure.
Why does folding the bottom of our value 3bet range to a 4bet mean we can't have a 3bet bluff range?

How is this "overfolding for sure?"
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemares
So you have a calling range in SB vs UTG and MP opens?



Why does folding the bottom of our value 3bet range to a 4bet mean we can't have a 3bet bluff range?

How is this "overfolding for sure?"
yes I do, but it's obviously really tight. I would advise everyone to adopt a similar strategy vs. good regs, esp. since BB cannot squeeze lightly as much due to there being a strong, uncapped range and a strong, condensed, yet capped range still in play if he 3bets.

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AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemares
Why does folding the bottom of our value 3bet range to a 4bet mean we can't have a 3bet bluff range?

How is this "overfolding for sure?"
I assume we aren't 5betting AKo and QQ often, so we are calling most of the range that we continue with. Meaning if we fold more than ~40% of the time that he 5 bets with this small betsize, we're overfolding.

If we 3b for value [TT+ AQo+ AJs+, KQs], and fold AQo, AJs, KQs, we're already folding around 30%, so we really can't have much of a bluffing range here (only like 12 combos).
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 03:37 PM
Okay, I thought you were talking about a 3bet bluffing range because:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
you can have pretty much no bluff 3b range
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
I assume we aren't 5betting AKo and QQ often, so we are calling most of the range that we continue with. Meaning if we fold more than ~40% of the time that he 5 bets with this small betsize, we're overfolding.
You just said it yourself, we're folding around 30% of our range to a 4bet, and continuing with 70%. That's not overfolding.

Also, it's a 4bet, not a 5bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
If we 3b for value [TT+ AQo+ AJs, KQs], and fold AQo, AJs, KQs, we're already folding around 30%, so we really can't have much of a bluffing range here (only like 12 combos).
Are you talking about a 3bet bluffing range or a 5bet bluffing range?
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemares
Are you talking about a 3bet bluffing range or a 5bet bluffing range?
I was talking about the 3 bet bluffing range,
and I assumed we aren't 5 betting hands like QQ and AKo, we are calling them vs 4b. Therefore we have to defend vs 4 bets a bit wider, since opponents' bluffs realize more equity postflop.

I never said that we are overfolding to 4bets, I just said that we can't have much of a bluff 3b range if we don't want to overfold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
if your value 3betting range is [TT+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+], and you fold AQo, AJs, KQs to this small 4b, you can have pretty much no bluff 3b range, or you're overfolding for sure.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKesic
I was talking about the 3 bet bluffing range,
and I assumed we aren't 5 betting hands like QQ and AKo, we are calling them vs 4b. Therefore we have to defend vs 4 bets a bit wider, since opponents' bluffs realize more equity postflop.

I never said that we are overfolding to 4bets, I just said that we can't have much of a bluff 3b range if we don't want to overfold.
I guess something got lost in translation.
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote
06-15-2017 , 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemares
I guess something got lost in translation.
My bad
AQo in SB vs MP 4bet - 25z Quote

      
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