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another bluff at NL10 another bluff at NL10

11-19-2022 , 04:29 AM
Villain is quite loose, 29/23 and 9% 3bet over > 300 hands. I thought I'm the only one who can have QQ or JJ here and if they had a set on the flop they would have raised earlier in the hand.

Suicidal?

€0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BTN: 222.8 BB
SB: 105.5 BB
BB: 103.6 BB
UTG: 109.3 BB
Hero (MP): 109.1 BB
CO: 55.9 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q K

fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, BTN calls 2.5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 9 5 J
Hero bets 4.1 BB, BTN calls 4.1 BB

Turn: (14.7 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero bets 10.5 BB, BTN calls 10.5 BB

River: (35.7 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero bets 11.2 BB, BTN raises to 29 BB, Hero raises to 92 BB and is all-in
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 04:35 AM
Check flop. When you turn your tp in to a bluff atr what are you targeting to fold? That is better than KQ and folds?
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 04:45 AM
I don’t get this play at all -why did you take top pair and turn it into a bluff? What are you hoping he is going to fold that would have beaten you? Trip 5’s? 2 pair or a straight?

If you think he is bluff raising you on the river you could simply call...but in my experience but river check raises are usually for value...
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomLurker
Check flop. When you turn your tp in to a bluff atr what are you targeting to fold? That is better than KQ and folds?
Why check flop? I'm all for being cautious with cbets when OOP but here we have 2 overcards, a gutshot and a backdoor flushdraw. What does checking accomplish? I guess you check/call?

I hope they fold everything except full houses and I think they have none anyway. Well, at least that was my thinking in game, might be stupid.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by silky28
If you think he is bluff raising you on the river you could simply call...but in my experience but river check raises are usually for value...
If they bluff calling or shoving is the same, I win the pot. That's not the part of their range I'm targetting.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boulgakov
Why check flop?
Start by doing some studying why we check this floop oop as pfr. Hint : it has something to do with ranges and the cards on the board.

Fwiw he doesn't raise sets 100% of the time otf. So he has all the fhs outside of QQ.

Last edited by RandomLurker; 11-19-2022 at 07:41 AM.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 07:42 AM
Checking range here as the flop doesn't really smash our range.

I think your cbet sizing is a touch too big too
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomLurker
Start by doing some studying why we check this floop oop as pfr. Hint : it has something to do with ranges and the cards on the board.
Yes, I can imagine the reason you propose an action has something to do with the cards lol. If you don't want to explain, why do you even bother posting ? "Check", "Fold", "Call" without explanations are useless posts.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boulgakov
Yes, I can imagine the reason you propose an action has something to do with the cards lol. If you don't want to explain, why do you even bother posting ? "Check", "Fold", "Call" without explanations are useless posts.
Lol. You mad bro because he didn't fold a flopped fullhouse? No offence but this hand is played very badly. You don't cbet that flop because it favors villain. You don't use that sizing ever. River jam is awful because you basically rep queens and expect trips to fold lol.

Do some basic work otf and you will have some basic understanding when to bet and why. Peace.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 08:12 AM
I think a cbet here is fine imo. The reason why we want to check a lot here in theory has a lot to do with the fact that at equilibrium BTN's flatting range is very tight and condensed, and hits this flop decently. Reality is probably a lot looser, so c-betting becomes fine again. That said we still check a lot on this flop, so as long as we're not just mindlessly betting everything here it's fine. Fwiw this hand would work very nicely as a x/raise as well.

As played I don't like river, initial bet is fine. If you think villain is aggro and is reacting to your block bet, I wouldn't fault a call. But turning top pair here into a bluff is quite bad. Much better (in theory) would be to choose a hand that def can't call. And even then my guess is that bet/bet/bet/3bet bluff lines are going to torch money at 10NL.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 10:51 AM
I'm fine with a cbet at this stakes but it is a little too big and don't allow us to fire again comfortably on a variety of turns.

Turn i'm just giving up.

As played you can't discount people doing some "wrong" plays like being passive and waking up in the river with sets/full or always 3betting JJ at NL10. I highly recommends you doing some research in your tracking software about what hands player pool is showing up when raising on the river.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 11:01 AM
Dunno if they can't have a set. I think this is a sport where villain should raise/fold some hands OTR. The question is whether they should raise enough to make bluffing profitable.

They might have a few straights, T8s or maybe KdTd, maybe some 5x, and maybe (but it's pushing it) some QJ. They can also have some fh. I think the problem with jamming your specific hand is that you block some of the potential r/f and none of the potential r/c. And that's if there are any r/f. And blockers will be pretty relevant for such a tight range spot. I think AJ, and if in range, J9, are the only bluffs you might want to consider using. And I'm not sure you do.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 06:40 PM
Call, call, raise river is going to be a severely underbluffed line for villain and nl10 villains may call you w as little as trips here and straights here or even worse
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boulgakov
Villain is quite loose, 29/23 and 9% 3bet over > 300 hands. I thought I'm the only one who can have QQ or JJ here and if they had a set on the flop they would have raised earlier in the hand.

Suicidal?

€0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BTN: 222.8 BB
SB: 105.5 BB
BB: 103.6 BB
UTG: 109.3 BB
Hero (MP): 109.1 BB
CO: 55.9 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q K

fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, BTN calls 2.5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 9 5 J
Hero bets 4.1 BB, BTN calls 4.1 BB

Turn: (14.7 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero bets 10.5 BB, BTN calls 10.5 BB

River: (35.7 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero bets 11.2 BB, BTN raises to 29 BB, Hero raises to 92 BB and is all-in
Nothing wrong with the flop/turn bet. Can get alot accomplished from betting this, larger sizing.
But as others are saying, call,call,raise is underbluffed. He has all the strong hands in his range, there's no need to turn a hand into a bluff at all, given stakes + population reads.

I'm fine with initial river bet as well.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-19-2022 , 11:20 PM
The general rule with flops like this is that we usually want to check, but when we do bet we want to bet big to balance the times we'll have sets, as well as to charge top pair and draws when we have TPTK and OP's. I think the two ideal hands to that with are KQ with a diamond or 87s/76s; the former because it blocks strong hands (KJ, QJ) and blocks flush; the latter because it has no showdown value and unblocks hands like random overs. With KQ we can also target AQ/AT and AXs, as well as bottom/middle pair. So I don't hate flop bet (should probably be pot though). River polarizes v's range so there's no reason to raise. The only better hand you might get to fold is T8s and A5s and those are a small part of of v's range. I doubt seriously KTs folds fearing you have a house, especially when flush missed.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-21-2022 , 06:22 AM
Quote:
if they had a set on the flop they would have raised earlier in the hand.
He doesn't need to raise because you bombed the flop and turn lol. You're doing the betting for him and if you're bluffing, he wants you to keep bluffing on the river.

By betting so big, his range is pretty clearly defined when you get to the river.

On the river, population at 10NL is rarely bluff raising so your 3B is just spew.
another bluff at NL10 Quote
11-21-2022 , 01:33 PM
Thanks everyone for the answers. As often, the discussion focused on an aspect I did not consider, the flop cbet. Interesting.

I'll try to find less spewy bluff opportunities. I was lucky this time, results :

River: (35.7 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero bets 11.2 BB, BTN raises to 29 BB, Hero raises to 92 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero wins 89 BB

(Villain used their whole 60s timebank...)
another bluff at NL10 Quote

      
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