Hello everyone I got another interesting one for you guys. Game is $5/10 NL at the Commerce. Brand new table just started with plenty of old rich donks. Villain in the hand is an unknown older 40's+ asian lady. This hand takes place around the 3rd orbit. Hero is in seat 7 and villain asian lady is in seat 1. The game has been pretty tight and everyone seems to be feeling each other out. She bought in short and has $800 and I cover.

Just to note: the 5 was exposed before the flop

4 limpers upfront and hero is in the SB and completes with 3 3 BB in seat 8 checks.

Flop (~60) A 2 3
I lead for $40, BB folds, asian lady quickly says "Make it $140". Everyone else folds and I think for about 30 seconds or so before just calling the extra $100. I was pretty sure she just had a ace with a decent kicker as there was no flush draws out there added to the fact that one of the 5's was already exposed. I didn't want to scare her off the hand and I wanted to see what she was going to do on the turn.

Turn (~340) 4
Not a good card for me as A5 was a possible hand she could have so I decided to check thinking that she would check back her A10+ as well and I would lead out pretty large on the river. However she quickly says "$200". This bet surprised me as she didn't seem like the type of player to turn her one pair hand into a bluff in this situation. Even if she flopped Aces and Deuces or if the turn made her two pair the majority of these players are going to check back the turn as they are always are afraid of trapping themselves. I call.

River (~740) 9
I check. Not more than 2 seconds after doing so she waves her hands forward saying "Alll ein". It's $460 more to call. Hero???

call ofc what are u bea by that would play like this 56? 45 sure thats like 9 hands how many 2pair hands could she have? like a million

Call, but I think I prefer shoving turn because she will call it off with almost all hands she would shove the river with and some other hands which she checks back the river with. Also betting turn with AK for example is not turning it into a bluff

Well which is it?

Why wouldnt you just 3 bet the flop? I doubt she's rr'ing you light multiway, and when you're putting her on a strong A, do you really think she's folding with so little left behind?

im never folding this but almost every time i get dirty vs an asian and they do the standard arrin..hand wave...cocky motion they have the nuts. especiallllllly an old asian lady

You mentioned the table has been playing quite tight as players are feeling each other out. Your opponent is UTG+1 in a 9 handed game. How many 5x hands are really in her range? Especially with one of them in the muck.

Also, she popped you on the flop so unless she flopped the straight (again 54 UTG+1 is unlikely so it would have to be suited and the 5d is burned and the 4s hits the board so only 2 combinations of a suited 54) or raised with A5, top pair + gutshot (unlikely as well), I would venture to guess she is made right there on the flop. AA is quite unlikely with no preflop raise (though you can never discount them) and you are beating 22.

I don't mind the flop call of the raise though 3betting has merit as well. But your decision should be on the turn as to whether or not you want to stack off here (by the way, you do!). Just calling allows for a spade or 5 to peel which could be a blow to you. She is shortstacked enough to probably feel committed to any hand she is double barreling with so just appease her wishes.

If you feel she is likely to check behind on the turn given flop action than I am more inclined to raise the flop or lead the turn myself. She is too short for you not to stack her if she does hold a hand and by letting a street go without a bet will allow her to keep some chips which would be a shame.

I would venture to guess her most likely hand is 2pair here.

call quickly

call and fist yourself if she shows up with a 5

I'm surprised no one could find a fold in this situation. If this was a raised pot (now that I look back I was ordering some food when it came around to me so I just completed the small blind instead of raising PF which is something I normally do in this position) then I would have definitely led out after the flop and get it all in if she re-raised me like she did. Remember this was a limped pot so 45 suited is definitely a probable hand in this situation. The way she raised me on the flop it just felt so strong. What exactly do I beat here other than two pairs which she would almost never fire again on the turn and especially go all in on the river with. This is $5/10 at commerce where the majority of players hardly ever put their whole stack at risk (yes even 80BB's) in a limped pot unless they have some sort of nut hand. People just don't like to bluff their stack off in limped pots. From my experience playing these games at card rooms in the LA area, in limped pots 95% of the time when someone goes all in after all the community cards are out on the board they never have just two pair, and I have yet to see someone push all in with 4 to a straight on the board unless of course they have the straight.

Results: She called the clock on me (weird I know) as I was thinking for about 2 minutes. I kindly asked her why she called the clock on me and she said she wanted to move on to the next hand. I replied with "yeah i know its easy to be in your position when you are betting with the nuts" to which she said nothing. I ended up folding face up to which everyone went crazy. "How can you fold" ect. ect. She showed her hand to her asian friend next to her and proceeded to muck. Everyone wanted to see what she had since she showed a player at the table so the dealer flipped over her hand. 4 5

very thinly veiled brag

LOL okay, so instead of the much wider range of Ax, 2 pairs and bottom set, we can put her on exactly AA or 45, because live poker is all about the soul read, even if it contradicts the read you yourself gave!

jesus. RR flop. she's tight so, she's got 2 pr or TPTK minimum. it's 80BBs with a set.

Well then this was a stupid hand to post because you needed around 20/1 pot odds and you clearly don't have close to that.

And fwiw your plan of raising preflop would have been a very bad one

I thought that I’d pipe in here since I picked this hand to discuss on this week’s Deuce Plays with Limon.

This is just about the easiest river fold in the world.

Why on earth you wouldn’t take a bet 3-bet line on the flop is beyond me. Her hand is always AK+ with the given action and she is never folding any of her holdings. Why not get the money in right there instead of giving her an excuse to fold when possible scare cards come?

The turn is pretty interesting. She rarely will bet AK with a one liner appearing but very well might make a smallish to medium size bet with aces up or a set to get to a free showdown. $200, here, is not a small bet in her mind, even if it represents less than a 2/3 pot size bet to us (they have no idea about pot size). I would be really concerned. You definitely have implied odds to boat up and shove though.

If I had c/c the turn after a smaller bet the river is an easy bet fold especially with deeper stacks. You’re getting value from all those two pair/set hands that she’ll check back. She may not even raise the river with 45 after you c/c the turn. With that large bet on the turn, however, I lean more towards a check fold than a bet fold. Anyway it’s an insta-muck when she raises or shoves.

It just goes to show you how unfamiliar a lot of MSNLers are with live play at this level. People who think that she would shove two pair on the river really have no clue about betting ranges live especially with regards to older players who play 5-10 at Commerce.

She is never shoving the river with any holding not containing a 5, and I would bet my testicles on that. I'm pretty sure 3betting the flop is most profitable even if your image is squeeky clean, as she isn't likely raising with AX and these types of players love to limp AK and go to death with it when they nail either card; in other words, her flop raising range in a limped pot is much more likely to be AK+ and it isn't folding to a 3bet. I think c/c turn as played is fine so long as you're ready to make the right play in c/folding any non pairing river (she'll probably check a bricked river back some of the time too since they love to bet turns for free river showdowns, but that doesn't really give us the green light on leading the river ourselves since the pot's now too inflated to bet/fold and the mere fact that she bet the turn so strongly suggests that we're often beat before the river anyways).

I primarily play live and feel I have a clue about peoples hand ranges. I think my post was pretty well rounded actually...and I ventured to guess she had 2pair...

Beyond the fact that a 5 was exposed and less 54 suited hands being available (a huge factor), underestimating people losing there brain and spewying should not be dismissed in the least.

Often times players have no foresight and only concentrate on what their decision should be or the choices they have in front of them at that very minute. This results in players too often over playing their hands, which can often result in a desperate attempt at winning the pot without the proper motives, ie., not sure whether they are value betting or bluffing. They see a ton of money in the middle and realize half of it is theirs and then conjure up enough excuses in their head to jam in order to either protect their investment, or make a crying call/bet, or think you could have worse than you obviously have represented, or fear getting bluffed out so they bet themselves, or what have you, etc, etc...

Disclaimer: If the players at the commerce are unique to other live players than I will admit I am ignorant of their traits and characteristics but there are old asian ladies in many games across the country.

No doubt that most of this is dead on, but they don't do this after raising the flop for value with the hand they've been waiting what seems to be an eternity to them for. The only thing going through these players' minds when turns and rivers of any texture peel are "please don't let this hit, please don't let this hit, please... how bad do I run if this hits!" they don't all of a sudden have the urge to turn their sets into bluffs after someone calls them with a 4 liner to a straight on a board.

What you're referring to happens when a guy bets with K9 on a K high limped rainbow flop, bets the turn again when the Js brings two spades, and inexplicably pots a spade river. It doesn't happen when donks raise for value on a dry board with two pair+ on a dry board and get only flatted then flatted again when the turn brings a 4 liner to a straight. It just doesn't happen anywhere, not only the Commerce.

A reduced number of combos due to board (or burn) of 54s in live play doesn't mean as much as it does online, because live players tend to play offsuit connectors as often as they do suited connectors. If you've got 66 in a limped pot on a 643cc board, you think you're golden because "I only lose to 4 combos of 75s", but think again, because 52o can be out there, and 75o and 52s almost certainly came along.

Thanks for the advice. I made the mistake of not re-raising her on the flop after she raised me. I just felt like she was the type of player to throw her AQ/AK away if I did that. From my limited experience playing at commerce, usually a play like this scares away too many people as they automatically assume their one pair hand is no good. Against certain spews I definitely wouldn't have just flat called the raise, but she was a fairly nitty lady so that's why I took the flat call line on the flop. This is something I need to adjust to.

As for me re-raising on the flop as you suggested, would you recommend a min raise in this situation due to the fact that she only has so little money, or would you raise more?

Solid advice here, thanks. I just had a hard time putting her on a hand that she would raise me with on the flop and continue to fire on the turn and shove the river when the 4 liner appeared on the turn. Essentially the only hand she could have would be exactly 45.

why would you fold face up, do you want to broadcast to the table ur a bad nit?

live players wouldnt bet the turn here with two pair on a 4 straight board because they would be afraid you have it(however improbable). There is just no way she is going for two streets of value with two pair(and prob not AA for that matter). I would rr small on the flop though and look to get it in. Once people raise, they don't like to fold. River is a clear fold though, since she isn't really value betting worse and never has a bluff here.

think im going to fly out to la

I'm pretty sure you're never good here live against the described villain

I can't be ****ed to find who said this first but I saw this quoted:

This is a /thread imo