AKo , cbet ??? ZOOM - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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AKo , cbet ??? ZOOM

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12-10-2013 , 05:44 PM

talent

centurion

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 169

Spoiler:

maybe just ch\f ???

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.50(BB) Replayer
Hero ($58.90)
BB ($50.75)
UTG ($64.21)
UTG+1 ($55.74)
CO ($26.25)
BTN ($48.61)

Dealt to Hero A

fold, fold, CO raises to $1.50, fold, Hero raises to $5, fold, CO calls $3.50

FLOP ($10.50) Q

Hero bets $5.75, CO calls $5.75

TURN ($22) Q

Hero checks, CO bets $9.45, Hero folds

CO wins $21.01

Last edited by skraper; 12-13-2013 at 04:29 PM. Reason: changed picture

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12-11-2013 , 09:58 AM

TWhelan

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 8,754

I think you can x/f that flop, it hits villain's range pretty hard

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12-11-2013 , 10:14 AM

xss427

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 47

disagree, with the Q and J on board heros perceived range is good, you can fold out many hand on the flop.. but a second barrel on this texture is often not a good idea

b/f flop

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12-11-2013 , 11:03 AM

KiwiSpirit

stranger

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 10

Agree x/f flop is better, Q J hits too many villain's call 3-bet range, even {99,TT} can't fold only 1 barrel. The FE is too low. And only T comes on the turn can dominate villain. A or K still marginal.

The bluff is profitable only when you have special read on villain.

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12-11-2013 , 03:29 PM

sonatra666

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 105

Triple up or c/f flop. His fold to 3 bet is low (50% over 20K hands) so you can put a lot of pressure on 99,1010, J10+,A8s that are still in his range post flop. All of these hands will almost always fold to 2-3 barrels but won't all fold to only 1 or 2.

Maybe pick a hand with better equity to do this with though, like AK with the bdfd or an actual flush draw.

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12-11-2013 , 03:43 PM

Old_Timer

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 349

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonatra666

I agree more so with this.

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12-11-2013 , 03:51 PM

xss427

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 47

i think you can cbet flop and give up, but if you decide to barrel the trun than you have to go for the third barrel most of the time. and i agree this will foldout a lot of villains range even on the river
i dont think that double barrel and give up is a good line on flops like this

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12-11-2013 , 03:54 PM

TWhelan

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 8,754

Quote:

Originally Posted by xss427

i think you can cbet flop and give up

really bad on this board imo, especially with our hand

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12-11-2013 , 04:08 PM

xss427

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWhelan

really bad on this board imo, especially with our hand

hm ok, i will think about it again, more deep. i like to hear some more opinios here, pls

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12-11-2013 , 04:10 PM

#10

CCM

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 6,528

cbet is horrible. It is one of those boards that hits a 3bet calling range better than a 3bet range so if you just start to chuck money in with one of the worst hands in your range you are going to get destroyed.

If you are worried about c/folding to much just play c/r with QQ,JJ,AA etc but I'm not sure it's necessary vs this villain.

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12-11-2013 , 04:23 PM

#11

sonatra666

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCM

cbet is horrible. It is one of those boards that hits a 3bet calling range better than a 3bet range so if you just start to chuck money in with one of the worst hands in your range you are going to get destroyed.

If you are worried about c/folding to much just play c/r with QQ,JJ,AA etc but I'm not sure it's necessary vs this villain.

this.. you'll have a lot more equitable semi-bluffs in this spot

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12-11-2013 , 05:14 PM

#12

lumileijona

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Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 8,020

He is tight. His range for calling the 3bet is quite tight unless your image is that of a maniac. Its a clear c/f OTF. 3 barreling is almost as terrible as cbet and giving up. On that turn 3 barreling is suicidal.

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12-11-2013 , 11:30 PM

#13

sonatra666

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 105

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumileijona

I meant 3 barrelling, given that flop over many hypothetical turns and rivers. It isn't nearly as bad as donating a flop cbet.

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12-11-2013 , 11:48 PM

#14

Franchise804

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Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,274

Stats and board texture = c/f

Sent from my VS870 4G using 2+2 Forums

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12-12-2013 , 12:01 AM

#15

Franchise804

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Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 7,274

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCM

Are you cbetting this flop vs a looser (but not a fish) player?

Sent from my VS870 4G using 2+2 Forums

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12-12-2013 , 12:59 AM

#16

dkill37

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 36

I think I'm c/f this flop, I also noticed vil is in for half a BI, which makes him more likely to be a fish and harder to bluff because his stack is too small for 3 barrels.

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12-12-2013 , 04:20 AM

#17

CCM

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 6,528

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franchise804

Are you cbetting this flop vs a looser (but not a fish) player?

Sent from my VS870 4G using 2+2 Forums

Don't think so. Flop still hits a looser calling range. Do we need to start continuing with ak combos at some point?

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12-12-2013 , 04:28 AM

#18

(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)

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Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 11,387

Flat pre.

And dicky move to include s/n's publicly, esp with a big sample like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCM

Don't think so. Flop still hits a looser calling range. Do we need to start continuing with ak combos at some point?

Yes.

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12-12-2013 , 04:48 PM

#19

(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)

Flat pre.

Anyone?

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12-12-2013 , 05:22 PM

#20

Ilikejuice

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 206

Quote:

Originally Posted by (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)

Flat pre.

I'd say that's pretty atrocious. We are OOP, and not the semi good kind of OOP that we know as BB. We also know that Villain will call a range that we are ahead of preflop. He also 4bets insanely tight which means that we can 3bet/fold easily, no danger of any weird 4bet pots OOP.

You could probably argue for flatting if BB defended by squeezing a lot and rarely by calling, but with CO being tight as hell and also calling a somewhat wide percentage of his opening range I don't see that happening.

Why do you think flatting is a good idea here?

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12-13-2013 , 06:42 AM

#21

(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilikejuice

I'd say that's pretty atrocious.

I think that's a huge exaggeration...

While 3betting is certainly fine, I think flatting is better because he'll be folding 50% of a 13% range. While we're not doing that badly against that range, we're doing better against a 13% range. We cannot jam either because his 4betting range is KK+. This OOP isn't that much worse as the "other OOP"... If BB 3bets, which will happen, we got a nice spot to 4bet as we got blockers to his value range.

Another important reason for me to flat is that villain is cbetting way too often, and I think that by exploiting that we make more money than by 3betting and clashing with his calling range.

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12-13-2013 , 07:00 AM

#22

CCM

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 6,528

Flatting is ok also, this guy doesn't seem particularly positionally aware and isn't raising that light from the CO.

Oh yeah if we do 3bet we are certainly not folding to a 4bet though.

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12-13-2013 , 07:16 AM

#23

(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 11,387

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCM

Flatting is ok also, this guy doesn't seem particularly positionally aware and isn't raising that light from the CO.

Oh yeah if we do 3bet we are certainly not folding to a 4bet though.

then we should certainly flat... Why though, you realize it'll be -EV?

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12-13-2013 , 09:24 AM

#24

CCM

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 6,528

Quote:

Originally Posted by (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)

then we should certainly flat... Why though, you realize it'll be -EV?

I don't think it will be. I think 3bet/5bet and flat pre are probably both +EV but the trick is choosing the right one. It's probably close here imo.

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12-13-2013 , 09:57 AM

#25

(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)

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Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 11,387

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCM

I don't think it will be. I think 3bet/5bet and flat pre are probably both +EV but the trick is choosing the right one. It's probably close here imo.

his 4bet range is 0.5%, so we got no FE and 20%

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