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Ace High Flush VS River Raise Ace High Flush VS River Raise

03-06-2012 , 06:19 PM
the act of betting for value has no correlation with folding to a raise
you can 2xpot/fold if it's more +ev than the other options
Ace High Flush VS River Raise Quote
03-06-2012 , 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by McSkinny
Hmm, well at the micros I think it's okay most of the time. Not saying you can't ever b/f when you're not comfortable with a c/c, but I think in this hand I would hate to be bluff raised off of the best hand, or have him value raise worse if he's really bad, or value-cut myself to a better hand that may have checked behind. I also didn't realize I would be criticized so badly :P, that's okay though. Maybe I should've wrote "Don't value bet big otr if you're going to fold to a raise", I don't know. It's not like I never b/f my medium strength hands oop otr. It was also a tidbit that I learned from a uNL bluefire video, although it was probably worded slightly differently.
I'm sure it was worded differently, because ''also good rule of thumb: don't value-bet if you're going to fold to a raise." is fundamentally wrong.

It would mean that if a fish is going to call our bet 70% of the time with worse, and reraise with better 30% of the time, we should not be vbetting.

Micro villains
- call too much
- don't raise enough on flop/turn
- virtually never bluff raise river
Ace High Flush VS River Raise Quote
03-07-2012 , 04:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stickit
I'm sure it was worded differently, because ''also good rule of thumb: don't value-bet if you're going to fold to a raise." is fundamentally wrong.

It would mean that if a fish is going to call our bet 70% of the time with worse, and reraise with better 30% of the time, we should not be vbetting.

Micro villains
- call too much
- don't raise enough on flop/turn
- virtually never bluff raise river
I completely agree with you. A better way to word it, or what I've been attempting to say, would be "Don't value-bet if you will be unsure what to do when raised, specifically on the river, or if stacks will get in if you get raised." I can see why people thought my "rule of thumb" was awful, and I would completely agree with you all. However I simply cut corners when writing it, and was conveying a ridiculous point.
Ace High Flush VS River Raise Quote
03-07-2012 , 04:43 AM
You don't b/f because you're uncomfortable with a c/c.

You b/f because villain will call with a range of hands that you beat, that he won't bet with if you check. But if you bet and he raises, you're always beat.
Ace High Flush VS River Raise Quote
03-07-2012 , 05:50 AM
damn McSkinny,try getting your head around this, it's easily one of the most important things in poker
Ace High Flush VS River Raise Quote
03-07-2012 , 06:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionutd
damn McSkinny,try getting your head around this, it's easily one of the most important things in poker
I understand it and agree with all of you, I just suck at explaining things.
Ace High Flush VS River Raise Quote
03-07-2012 , 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by McSkinny
I completely agree with you. A better way to word it, or what I've been attempting to say, would be "Don't value-bet if you will be unsure what to do when raised, specifically on the river, or if stacks will get in if you get raised." I can see why people thought my "rule of thumb" was awful, and I would completely agree with you all. However I simply cut corners when writing it, and was conveying a ridiculous point.
this is not it
you start by betting for value because you believe enough bad hands will call
don't spend a second thinking of what happens if he raises, once he does, it's a completely different problem, you then start considering how many stronger hands play like this, if you beat any of his value range, is he capable of turning something into a bluff, could your line possibly induce something yada yada
let me give you a clear cut example
you have 99 on 987K6 and you vbet river into a fish, you know he calls with tp, worse sets and 2p but only ever raises straights.
Ace High Flush VS River Raise Quote
03-07-2012 , 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionutd
you start by betting for value because you believe enough bad hands will call
.
I agree, I think I may just worry too much about being raised off of the best hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionutd
don't spend a second thinking of what happens if he raises, once he does, it's a completely different problem, you then start considering how many stronger hands play like this, if you beat any of his value range, is he capable of turning something into a bluff, could your line possibly induce something yada yada
I disagree, I don't see why you shouldn't be thinking one step ahead when you check or bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionutd
let me give you a clear cut example
you have 99 on 987K6 and you vbet river into a fish, you know he calls with tp, worse sets and 2p but only ever raises straights.
I agree, b/f is the play here.
Ace High Flush VS River Raise Quote

      
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