Ace High Flush VS River Raise - Page 2 - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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Ace High Flush VS River Raise

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03-06-2012 , 06:19 PM

#26

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

the act of betting for value has no correlation with folding to a raise
you can 2xpot/fold if it's more +ev than the other options

Quote

03-06-2012 , 07:07 PM

#27

stickit

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 538

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSkinny

Hmm, well at the micros I think it's okay most of the time. Not saying you can't ever b/f when you're not comfortable with a c/c, but I think in this hand I would hate to be bluff raised off of the best hand, or have him value raise worse if he's really bad, or value-cut myself to a better hand that may have checked behind. I also didn't realize I would be criticized so badly :P, that's okay though. Maybe I should've wrote "Don't value bet big otr if you're going to fold to a raise", I don't know. It's not like I never b/f my medium strength hands oop otr. It was also a tidbit that I learned from a uNL bluefire video, although it was probably worded slightly differently.

I'm sure it was worded differently, because ''also good rule of thumb: don't value-bet if you're going to fold to a raise." is fundamentally wrong.

It would mean that if a fish is going to call our bet 70% of the time with worse, and reraise with better 30% of the time, we should not be vbetting.

Micro villains
- call too much
- don't raise enough on flop/turn
- virtually never bluff raise river

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03-07-2012 , 04:12 AM

#28

McSkinny

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 347

Quote:

Originally Posted by stickit

I completely agree with you. A better way to word it, or what I've been attempting to say, would be "Don't value-bet if you will be unsure what to do when raised, specifically on the river, or if stacks will get in if you get raised." I can see why people thought my "rule of thumb" was awful, and I would completely agree with you all. However I simply cut corners when writing it, and was conveying a ridiculous point.

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03-07-2012 , 04:43 AM

#29

udbrky

Formerly known as udbrky

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 28,908

You don't b/f because you're uncomfortable with a c/c.

You b/f because villain will call with a range of hands that you beat, that he won't bet with if you check. But if you bet and he raises, you're always beat.

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03-07-2012 , 05:50 AM

#30

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

damn McSkinny,try getting your head around this, it's easily one of the most important things in poker

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03-07-2012 , 06:10 AM

#31

McSkinny

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 347

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

damn McSkinny,try getting your head around this, it's easily one of the most important things in poker

I understand it and agree with all of you, I just suck at explaining things.

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03-07-2012 , 06:17 AM

#32

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

Quote:

Originally Posted by McSkinny

I completely agree with you. A better way to word it, or what I've been attempting to say, would be "Don't value-bet if you will be unsure what to do when raised, specifically on the river, or if stacks will get in if you get raised." I can see why people thought my "rule of thumb" was awful, and I would completely agree with you all. However I simply cut corners when writing it, and was conveying a ridiculous point.

this is not it
you start by betting for value because you believe enough bad hands will call
don't spend a second thinking of what happens if he raises, once he does, it's a completely different problem, you then start considering how many stronger hands play like this, if you beat any of his value range, is he capable of turning something into a bluff, could your line possibly induce something yada yada
let me give you a clear cut example
you have 99 on 987K6 and you vbet river into a fish, you know he calls with tp, worse sets and 2p but only ever raises straights.

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03-07-2012 , 06:41 AM

#33

McSkinny

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 347

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

you start by betting for value because you believe enough bad hands will call
.

I agree, I think I may just worry too much about being raised off of the best hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

don't spend a second thinking of what happens if he raises, once he does, it's a completely different problem, you then start considering how many stronger hands play like this, if you beat any of his value range, is he capable of turning something into a bluff, could your line possibly induce something yada yada

I disagree, I don't see why you shouldn't be thinking one step ahead when you check or bet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

let me give you a clear cut example
you have 99 on 987K6 and you vbet river into a fish, you know he calls with tp, worse sets and 2p but only ever raises straights.

I agree, b/f is the play here.

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