so, I am pretty sure I've made a mistake in this hand, if this would be 100bb deep, I am shoving this 99% of the time, but 200bb deep got me a bit confused. Is it ok to flat 4b OOP ? or just get it in even with 200bb deep? I don't have many stats on OP, just that he bets flop 100% of the time, in position and OOP

PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 46.4 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
Hero (SB): 198 BB
BB: 240.6 BB (VPIP: 21.64, PFR: 14.62, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 174)
UTG: 346.6 BB (VPIP: 23.81, PFR: 23.81, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
MP: 115.8 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
CO: 199 BB (VPIP: 19.25, PFR: 11.76, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 195)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K K

UTG raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 12 BB, fold, UTG raises to 52.4 BB, Hero calls 40.4 BB

Flop: (105.8 BB, 2 players) T 8 J
Hero checks, UTG bets 67.4 BB, Hero raises to 145.6 BB and is all-in, UTG calls 78.2 BB

Turn: (397 BB, 2 players) 2

River: (397 BB, 2 players) 9

Hero shows K K (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 83%, Flop 76%, Turn 86%)
UTG shows Q Q (Straight, Queen High)
(Pre 17%, Flop 24%, Turn 14%)
UTG wins 380.6 BB

Bad luck? You could have 5-bet -> shove pre flop but I'm not experienced enough in 200BB play for that. I actually like this call to be honest. Because in most cases u tottally dominate villain.

that's why I am asking here, I am not experienced in such spots 200bb deep, to be honest I am not really a big fan of calling preflop here, unless I have any reads/notes on villain, would love to hear opinion of someone who is experienced in such spots, I mean would it be really bad to shove 200bb preflop against villain without any reads?

Yeah kinda dumb but I think you played it fine.

up up

I think a case may be able to be made for GII preflop. I know we're 200bb deep, but there is definitely a sizing tell that is going on here. What competent player opens UTG for 4bb with aces? What competent player 4bets 4.5x the 3bet size? Larger than usual raises (I know this because I did this when I first started) are hands new players are uncomfortable with, like JJ, AQ, TT, AK type hands.

The flat is almost certainly better 200bb deep, but I don't think shipping it preflop is too terrible given his raise sizes.

Is calling flop bad in this spot as OP?

Giii pre..

there is no point in calling, if we call we have like 80bb left in a 240bb pot, so either get it in or fold

KK is a tough hand 200 bb deep, because everybody should play QQ,AK slower (mean no 4-bet), sure in higher limits there are many light 4-bets for this reason but if you 4-bet and he shoves 200 bb, are you really in good shape with KK ?
On the other hand, if i was in his shoes i wouldonly 4-bet AA or bluffs in which case you would have a hard time with your KK, you cant shove then, because i only call with AA.
And against this bluffs you also have troubles with KK because if they hit 2 pairs or better they broke otherwise they fold, i would everytime think you have a monster, calling a 4-bet so deep.
Of course not with this huge openraise and 4-bet, he cant play his bluffs profitably, i cant say, that nobody opens 4 bb with AA (why not) and 4-bet of course too, so because he sometimes only calls with QQ i wouldnt like my hand.

I imagine a spot, i was UTG holding KK and BB 3-bettet me, i was thinking "No i dont want to 4-bet broke 200bb" so i called ending up folding on an A high board.
Deeper stack position is even more important and i think you were lucky (until the river) that he 4-bettet QQ and invested 200 bb (very bad i think).
Only a few thoughts, why many dont play deepstack just because they have troubles with KK, you cant say cooler anymore if somebody only shoves with KK+ and you have KK.

That in mind make this spot very tough, i cant say how often he has QQ or AA but you flip against both, this is for sure if he 4-bets everytime with QQ.
So depends on you thought if he 4-bets/broke QQ or 4-bets/fold, if 4/bet fold, calling seems optimal.

And this board JT8 no he looses to AA,KK,JJ,TT and he bet/calls omg.