firstly, you do realise that when we bet the turn, if he calls, the cards aren't revealed and the best hand wins....

secondly, i chose not to comment on the river because obviously its a standard value raise. i tried to help you out by pointing out what i thought was a bigger error on the turn

Oh ffs, you really think he has that many reverse floats? Gutshots, and ace highs?

Then why do we isolate light and cbet, expecting to take down the pot so effing often?!? Furthermore, why does that work??

lol

you mad bro?

I agree river is a standard value raise; he tank-called, and the fact that he tanked with the hand he had made me question whether he would call with top pair at all, so I figured maybe I should check with others to see if they would concur with a raise against an unknown. I just don't see how you view turn as such a slam dunk.

Why would I care that the cards aren't revealed? What?

Yes, I'm furious that you disagree with me. No, obviously not. I just don't see the logic in what your saying. It doesn't make sense.

wtf you talking about?
we isolate the fish light exactly because he calls with gutshots and ace highs oop

and to reply to your other post
you're giving him a preflop range of any two suited cards. great so obviously he got a ton of 8x and 4x combos. he's not folding a pair on the flop, his range on the turn is weak, you got equity, barrel yo
edit: also you do realise that when you bet 0.8$ on the turn and he calls you can expect to win 0.4$ back on avg with 25% equity right? obv its more complicated than this but shows you that the equity you got makes a huge difference and you keep talking about needing 33%-40% fold equity (based on sizing) like you lose everything you put in every time once he calls

in my mind you're isolating fish for wrong reasons

well you're acting like they are....

if you can't interpret what i mean by this then gg

my logic doesn't make sense. ok. keep trucking kido

So we're supposed to two barrel unknowns in rush poker who limp call with no reads because we think they call the flop with ace highs and gutshots and we think that we can do this profitably against the majority of villains.

I isolate fish because I expect to get value from TP/2nd pair type hands for 2-3 streets because they call too much, and because I can take stabs at flops IP at generate enough fold equity for a profitable cbet. Not because I expect to two barrel on semi-wet boards when the majority of draws get there.

its cool guys he finally got it

yeah fish call 2-3 streets with 2nd pair but they don't call a flop cbet with worse than 2nd pair either

what im trying to say is that there's always gonna be a part of his range that he's gonna want to fold. if he's the type of fish who calls 3 streets with 2nd pair then he's most likely the type of fish who peels the flop super wide. if he's the type of fish who folds 4x/55/gutshots etc on the flop then he's most likely the type of fish who folds 2nd pair to a 2nd barrel.
with the amount of equity you got when called a turn barrel is pretty std

Wait. Sooooo...

Your argument is, that if he folds air on the flop, then hes the type to fold 8x on the turn. Where my point was, especially if there's no air, then he doesn't fold *enough* eights, and we don't have that much equity against Qx; we have 4 outs to a decently nutted hand, and 9 outs to a world of RIO nightmares.

And if he doesn't fold air on the flop, he'll fold it on the turn, but he won't fold 8x, which means we fold out a ton of hands we beat, some Ax, and nothing else.

All this combined with maybe he check raises two pair and sets, which if we're comfortable raise/folding the river too target those hands, we're scrapping those implied odds by folding (not the biggest deal, it's only like 10% which is only going to be an EV of like .20 if we're talking about a $2 bet on the river, but it's still something).

it baffles me how someone can be so bad, after being spoonfed

it baffles me how you purport to be awesome yet you still haven't put up a range for him calling the flop and shown me how he folds between 33-40% of the combos that he has after calling the flop, and how you can put enough air in his flop calling range while oop when he's a complete and total unknown.

so what exactly is the purpose of this thread? to teach everybody how to play?

let me ask you some questions

vs what hands do we have reverse implied odds on a spade river? if you're now putting premium hands such as AsQx, or KsQx into his range do you realise how bad pfr is, and how bad your cbet is? if you're now putting hands like As9x, KsJx in his range, do you realise how super fcuking standard a turn bet is, given what other hands he gets to the turn with

DO YOU REALISE THAT ONCE WE BET THIS TURN, WE GET A RIVER. A RIVER WHICH WE CAN BET. IF YOU COUNTER THIS WITH WE SHOULDN'T BE 3 BARRELLING VS UNKNOWNS THEN PRE AND FLOP ARE TERRIBLE, OR TURN IS A CLEAR BET.

stop assigning ranges left right and center to suit the action you took. you've no idea what you're rambling on about

can you please stop ignoring the fact that 8x is not the weakest hand he'll have here..
yeah so if he folds air on the flop we obv aren't folding out any air on the turn and he doesn't fold 8x every time. he still has almost as many 4x combos in is range tho, along with low pocket pairs. and if he calls then yeah we do actually have a pretty good amount of equity. try stoving your hand vs every Qx combo he can have. we're not in a world of rio nightmares (lol) if we hit a spade. we're just looking to show down our hand and if he suddenly leads out big we can just fold.

and if he doesn't fold air on the flop and doesn't fold 8x on the turn we're still getting him to fold 4x,low pocket pairs,a high and gutshots (yeah we beat them but we still have J high. we want him to fold his equity + not give him a chance to bluff the river)

and that point about implied odds and him c/r'ing sets/2pair on the turn makes such a small difference. he's way more likely to c/r those hands on the flop than on the turn anyway

RIO: Because i've already said he probably doesn't fold 8x with J+ of spades, and we don't really have that heavy of implied odds against worse flushes to offset. And why the eff can't he have any AsXs? Why can't he have KsXs? We hit the spade, and we're in a weird spot. If you read the range I already assigned, I specifically TOOK OUT any broadway flushes.

On the river, what do I barrel? Probably going to barrel a king or an ace because those are the only effing cards I can use, but a spade? Get value from baby flushes, and get owned by bigger ones. 9's a good card, but that's going to hit 10% and i get that 10% when I check back anyways.

Stop assigning ranges? Nah, I'm good thanks, I think I'll keep doing this hand reading thing, it's good fun.

And no, I don't mind 3 barreling an unknown. Just probably not when the turn card is a ****ty effing card to barrel especially against a limp/caller who probably doesn't fold a queen on a blank river.

you should really stop assigning ranges, because you are clearly unable to do this 'handreading thing', as fun as you may find it

the turn card is not a ****ty turn card to barrel, you're a moron

lol

Blaaz;
I don't think he has quite as many 4x combos as you'd like to think, but you're definately right, those are there and yeah he does fold them. The pocket pairs are too but that's not as many combos as it sounds, it's like 24 combos. I still don't think it's enough folds to really justify it though. The number of 4x combos probably makes it close though.

Look I'm at no point in here saying that betting the turn is a travesty; it's probably not massively -ev. I just don't see how it can +ev when we're effed so many ways and if we're making a mistake by not betting when his range is wider than I'd expect, we're probably making a more expensive mistake when his range is tighter than you'd expect.

i mean you gave him every 2 spades combo so he's gonna have every 4xs also.
he def has more off suit 8x than 4x so yeah.

even if his range is tighter than you'd think you can't really make a huge mistake here by betting because you're going to the river IP with ~25% equity. unless ofc his range is very top pair+ heavy, which is not the case when you're up against the avg limp/calling fish, he's going to be folding the bottom part of his range here a lot. that may be as weak as A high/gutshots or as "strong" as 4x/8x, doesn't really matter he'll always fold a decent amount and when called like I said your equity is okay so you're not risking as much as you seem to think by betting (you need less fold equity than you think)