had villain running 10/8 with 3% 3bet over 700 hands....when he snap shoved over my 4bet i looked into his soul. probably one of the only times ill ever make this kind of fold ever in my life. i know it was BvB but this villain simply did not make plays like this, he is flatting QQ, AK to my 4bet always.



Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+1: $22.00
MP: $7.80
CO: $28.55
BTN: $14.25
Hero (SB): $78.80
BB: $52.75
UTG: $23.60

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with K K
4 folds, BTN calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, BB raises to $6.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $15, BB raises to $52.75 all in, Hero requests TIME, 1 fold

Here are some more examples of "The Unthinkable" along with some discussion when (if at all) you should do it, and if its profitable.

No, not always, its BvB, stack off here man. This is terrible. This might be a fold if he is UTG and 4bets, but definitely not here. AK and QQ are both in his range.

Also, your image here is just as important as his. If you have been stealing on the button and in the blinds, his range is going to be wider.

Ooooh.... did not notice it was BvB, I am NEVER folding this.

MOAR!

hahaha, maybe i will blow that up, print it and tape it to my door. no come on i was not 4betting for info, i was 4betting for value. and my plan was to just stack off there always. and luka, this particular villain did not adjust, everytime i saw him seated on my left i would lick my lips at all the free blinds i would be receiving at that table, something like a 90+% F BB to steal. what happened was, he snap shoved my 4bet and i was like "F a range....this SOB has AA" and i timed out trying to convince myself that folding was ridiculous. i just really could not see him 5bet shoving anything else. he was real nitty.....and i surprised myself by folding this, i mean im not even close to a nit im like 23/19 and i make spew plays and dumb hero calls like all the time.

I think your line of thinking might be flawed here. If you are running at 23/19 and you have been taking his blinds, villain is probably noticing. You say he is not adjusting, and his range is AA. How do you know he isn't adjusting here and value raising AQ+/JJ+?

OP, out of curiosity what are your thoughts on the fold in hindsight?

Gregs gonna love this thread...

I would never ever fold this. If you don't think he will 5 bet anything other than AA then don't 4 bet... otherwise your turning your hand into a bluff. So flatting his 3 bet I can see, but 4 bet/folding is really awful. That being said, I don't think 4 betting is the wrong play, but folding most definitely is.

i agree that he will probably adjust by 3betting me lighter if i aggressively steal his blinds all the time. however, when he 5bet shoves over my 4bet, theres no way he can think im ever 4betting light here. imo, he snap shoves over me and expects to get called by QQ+ i dont 4bet light like ever unless someone is 3bet/folding a ton. you are saying he is 5bet shoving light because im stealing a lot? i doubt it. i mean your right i dont KNOW he has AA here always, i just thought that a HUGE % of the time he does. i know like AA vs KK is just a cooler and whatever it happens, and i dont mind...but i was just so sure that he had it this time. by all means pick apart my logic, its what helps me get better.

in before AK

I don't fold this. This looks like a steal. Sometimes you have to level. I'm a merciless blind stealer, One time I was on the BTN with Ks and raised to steal. Got 3bet, I 4bet, he shoved, I called. he had 10s and I won. He wasn't a maniac, he just KNEW I was stealing again. Yeah, he might have had aces, but my image opens up his range.

Also got someone to stack off once with A7 vs my pocket 10s. He caught his ace, though.

i agree with what you are saying in that i should not have 4bet and folded to a shove, if i was going to do that i should have just flatted the 3 bet, absolutely your right. what happened was i deviated from my 4bet/get it in plan. i wasnt like "ok im going to 4bet, but if he shoves he has AA and im folding" i 4bet totally planning to get it in as i routinely do, but then he snap shoved and idk, forgot about the plan and put him squarely on AA. definately a mistake to not follow through with my original plan.

Do not you think he would call you with AA? Especially with his image

I think that he is more likely than not to also have:

QQ, KK(I had KK vs KK the other day), AK and AA. (If you are going to give him a proper range here)

I cant justify a fold here, especially when he has hands on you and knows your steal% etc. There is more than just AA given the play, the stats etc. And whenever there is more than AA there, call the shove with KK imo.

You know, it isn't a rule that you have to 4bet KK pf. There is another option than just folding to a 3 bet, too.

You'll never know tilt till you lose this twice in a month.

As for the hand, get KK in pre BvB imo. If he'd 3bet your UTG open then shoved over your 4bet then I'd consider folding.

If he had timed down and shoved as opposed to snap shoving, would you have called him? FWIW, I always time down when I have AA before I 4 or 5 bet preflop.

Haha, I wonder what kind of sample you need in a month for this to happen statistically )) I only had AAvsAA and lost to a flush once in a 50k sample.

I have a 37k sample, both were against droolers, turned out alright, because the second one really tilted me, so I played some donkaments and scored $340 lol.

Hmm if I dont forget I will calculate the statistical chance of that happening in the span of 37k sample. I think it will be a very low number.

Help me out here please cause I dont get it (this is not a level). You say you 4bet for value cause he's always calling your 4bet with AK or QQ. How do you know that since you only have 700 hands on villain. I mean in my experience a 10/8 is rarely calling AK/QQ here oop. Against these type of players I would always flat here.