50NL - should we call with A high here ? - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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50NL - should we call with A high here ?

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02-15-2010 , 11:17 AM

vins84

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 180

The first time I 4bet, villain folded. It's the second time I 4bet (about 20 hands after).
He 3bet 22%.

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $32.30
Hero (BTN/SB): $47.85

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN/SB with A

Hero raises to $1.50, BB raises to $5, Hero raises to $14.00, BB calls $9.00

Flop: ($28.00) 2

(2 players)
BB bets $18.30 (All-in)

Hero ?

Should we call here ?

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02-15-2010 , 11:26 AM

gasau

stranger

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 8

4bet more preflop.
as played probably fold but i never get in such situations so idk.

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02-15-2010 , 11:27 AM

YouCantEscape

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 3,207

against that stacksize i just 4b jam. and i call on the flop now.

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02-15-2010 , 12:19 PM

muttiah

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 25,139

call and hope to improve vs 85o

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02-15-2010 , 12:27 PM

rbracco

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,605

Yeah def jam pre to avoid this...as is it is close, you need 40% and probably don't have it even if he shows up with air/draws quite a bit.

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02-15-2010 , 12:48 PM

quesuerte

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,333

snap

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02-15-2010 , 01:30 PM

PokerDuddel

adept

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 898

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isura

call and hope to improve vs 85o

this, and this only, gg.

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02-15-2010 , 02:09 PM

suckoutgenius

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,133

call.

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02-15-2010 , 02:17 PM

vins84

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 180

Ok if i sum up :

1) raising bigger pre is better to avoid this situation and make the call easier on the flop

2) in this spot, calling is better than folding

I understand the first point.

But could someone give some details to explain why call > fold on the flop please ?

thanks

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02-15-2010 , 02:32 PM

#10

mist520

enthusiast

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 70

Raising bigger pre only makes him fold weak hands, who's gonna call with any rags for a 60bb stack?!

Flop = snap call

Quote:

Originally Posted by vins84

But could someone give some details to explain why call > fold on the flop please ?

Because you're calling 18 to win 46, if you're behind you have 20% equity and more often than not you're ahead.

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02-15-2010 , 02:59 PM

#11

bato_nato

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 39

i honestly think it would be best to just 4bet it preflop in order to avoid this situation.

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02-15-2010 , 03:08 PM

#12

muttiah

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 25,139

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbracco

Yeah def jam pre to avoid this...as is it is close, you need 40% and probably don't have it even if he shows up with air/draws quite a bit.

we need way less than 40% btw

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02-15-2010 , 04:16 PM

#13

ph2133868789

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,705

29%, no? 18.30 x 2 + 28 = 64 * .29 = $18.xx

You probably have ~24% w/ two overs when behind. Against someone who 3bets 22% (sample size?), I don't see how I could possibly fold.

I also just 4bet jam to avoid this spot. If I'm downswinging, edit: and he's deeper, I may just flat pre to avoid the variance. How terrible is this?

Edit: nevermind, I'll start a thread about not 4b w/ AK.

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02-15-2010 , 04:26 PM

#14

shiish

adept

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 878

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2133868789

flatting is definitely terrible, u crush his 3bet-range and esp given stack sizes shove/4-bet>>>>>>>>> flat. and i would jam this pre pretty much always. snap as played.

edit: missed the being deeper part, flat probably isnt terrible then, but still 4betting is much better imo.

Last edited by shiish; 02-15-2010 at 04:31 PM. Reason: /

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02-15-2010 , 04:32 PM

#15

Boonce

adept

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,027

Jam p/f. As played call flop.

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02-15-2010 , 04:48 PM

#16

rbracco

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isura

we need way less than 40% btw

lol thanks for pointing that out...never getting up before noon again...

We need like 28% off the top of my head which makes it an easy easy call. Sorry for the bad info before.

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02-15-2010 , 04:58 PM

#17

scallop

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,807

i hate all this chat about jamming pf. wtf is our 4-betting range? are we jamming all those hands? just raise like u would with aa or j5s.

i would call the flop because im not convinced villian call pf with a pp then auto jams the flop. feels like he is check calling there. so i expect to see kq, aq sort of hands some times.

stu.

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02-15-2010 , 05:02 PM

#18

Danny830x

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 332

Jamming is fine against a lot of the shortstackers at 50NL. You're gonna be called by J7s and all kinds of weird crap often enough.

However, if you're gonna 4bet this normally you have to call on this flop with these stacks.

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02-15-2010 , 05:03 PM

#19

shiish

adept

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 878

Quote:

Originally Posted by scallop

i hate all this chat about jamming pf. wtf is our 4-betting range? are we jamming all those hands? just raise like u would with aa or j5s.

do we ever 4-bet here for anything but value? because 4-bet bluffing in this spot is absolutely terrible and out of question.

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02-15-2010 , 05:09 PM

#20

ph2133868789

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,705

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny830x

This...

and scallop, what's so bad about him folding?
There is already $6.20 in the pot before we 4b.
Just how much do you think your expectation is w/ AK when this hand goes postflop?

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02-15-2010 , 05:17 PM

#21

scallop

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,807

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiish

do we ever 4-bet here for anything but value? because 4-bet bluffing in this spot is absolutely terrible and out of question.

against a 22% 3-bettor I would hope we 4-bet aggressively

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2133868789

This...

and scallop, what's so bad about him folding?
There is already $6.20 in the pot before we 4b.
Just how much do you think your expectation is w/ AK when this hand goes postflop?

well i have a 4-betting range that I dont want to just jam it all in with pf because I lose a ton of value playing that range that way

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02-15-2010 , 06:08 PM

#22

ph2133868789

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,705

Against some players 60bb deep, I'm going to be jamming it in often enough that I'm probably better off just jamming it in with those hands (AA, KK) too.

Even if you don't, I don't think his perception of your 4b-not jamming range not including AK is going to hurt your bottom line that much. I don't worry about balancing too much at 50nl anyway because the opponents aren't very observant (if they are play someone else) and you are probably going to play 40 hands with him and never see him again. This brings up another good point. The EV of playing this hand suboptimally probably is too great to be offset by future EV, IMO.

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02-15-2010 , 09:28 PM

#23

Rob1107

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 138

Do people honestly think that a shortstacking tard at 50 NL is thinking about our preflop range for 4betting/jamming? 4betting to this amount or jamming is fine just please don't fold this flop. And why on earth would anyone advocate having a 4bet bluffing range against a 60bb shortstack? There is absolutely no need to balance against these players.

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02-15-2010 , 11:00 PM

#24

Discipline

banned

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,892

You have to call here, which is why your 4bet sizing is wrong.

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