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50nl KQs in 3bet pot 50nl KQs in 3bet pot

02-19-2009 , 11:22 AM
Trying to add some 6 max to my game. This is pretty much the only interesting hand I had today.

villain is 17/15/7 7% 3 bet. Only over 100 hands, but he seems to be super aggressive, and I think it's a pretty solid reflection of his stats. I was lost on the flop. Not sure if I should've raised or not. As played I am lost on the river. Does shoving fold out A/Q or anything else that beats me. I don't feel that I have much showdown value here so I think it's either bluff or have no chance at winning this.

Party Poker $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 43420
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $18.50
Hero (MP): $50.00
CO: $50.00
BTN: $83.70
SB: $57.00
BB: $53.75

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is MP with K Q
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, BB raises to $6.50, Hero calls $4.50

Flop: ($13.25) J 3 J (2 players)
BB bets $7.00, Hero calls $7

Turn: ($27.25) Q (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $14.00, BB calls $14

River: ($55.25) 5 (2 players)
BB checks,
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 11:31 AM
i would turbo raise the flop since he has a bunch of Ahigh and random crap in his range. i'm only calling there vs. someone that's 3betting tight and playing straight forward. once you call, i think checking turn is alright, since there aren't really that many river cards that you hate, but i like your bet size if you do bet. i dont think you get much on the river.
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 11:34 AM
how do you guys feel about preflop like this guy seems agro but if he is pos. aware he is less likely to be 3balling out of the blinds with a hand that KQ has much equity agianst given hero opened in MP? maybe im just being a nit?

meh shoving river is a bluff and Im not a huge fan of trying to fold out overpairs and I think thats a decent part of his range, unless he has some rando SC with hearts here but its less likely given your hand I prob give up here.
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 11:35 AM
You barely have enough outs to coldcall the flop in that 3bet pot.
If he hasn't improved with some AK-hand and shuts down UI, then your only chance to win is by spiking a pair while he doesn't spike a pair or by bluffing.

You have a good draw and there's already a good portion in the pot.
Good draw + bad implied odds IMHO --> I shove on the flop.
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 12:16 PM
seems like his half pot bet is giving me really good odds actually. I didn't raise flop because I'm expecting him to give up ak and aq on the turn and to obviously stack off with KK+ and probably QQ, so raising seemed to just polarize his range to hands that had me crushed.
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 12:18 PM
I check back the river because I expect villain to take this exact c/c c/c line with AA KK and I don't see value from anything worse.
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer
seems like his half pot bet is giving me really good odds actually. I didn't raise flop because I'm expecting him to give up ak and aq on the turn and to obviously stack off with KK+ and probably QQ, so raising seemed to just polarize his range to hands that had me crushed.
if he folds everything but hands that crush you on the flop, that's a good thing and massively profitable, because hands that crush you are a tiny part of his range. the stuff he's folding has good equity vs. us and offers relatively no io.
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02-19-2009 , 12:24 PM
Played well and i would check the river behind.
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 12:27 PM
The stuff that has equity against has 5, potentially 4 outs So I don't see why folding them out is such a big deal.
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 12:29 PM
i'm not sure what you mean. you have K high.
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 12:32 PM
Confused what you mean I think. You want me to raise the flop to fold out hands that don't crush me. Which hands are you talking about?

Also I mean they have 4 or 5 outs because I'm expcting him to c/f ak aq without improving on the turn
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 12:45 PM
he's not going to c/f hands like TT/99 on a brick turn and he doesn't neccessarily need his hand to improve to bet you off your draw on the turn. if he has something like an sc, he might barrel a K or A or d or spike straight draw, etc.

you're looking this guy up pf because you know he 3b a weak range. when you flop a strong draw on a board that's a total whiff for him, you should really be putting the hammer down imo.
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02-19-2009 , 12:48 PM
ah ok that makes sense, thanks.
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaycareInferno
he's not going to c/f hands like TT/99 on a brick turn and he doesn't neccessarily need his hand to improve to bet you off your draw on the turn. if he has something like an sc, he might barrel a K or A or d or spike straight draw, etc.

you're looking this guy up pf because you know he 3b a weak range. when you flop a strong draw on a board that's a total whiff for him, you should really be putting the hammer down imo.
Good thread. Spots like this have been on my mind lately...

On raising the flop are you shoving it for max FE or betting to $25-30 and calling a shove (ie do you think we get more FE out of a smaller raise or a shove)?
50nl KQs in 3bet pot Quote
02-19-2009 , 03:05 PM
Preflop is about feel/table conditions for me. Take him on sometimes, fold mostly would be my attitude here, especially over only 100 hands - that 7% 3b stat applies to only a handful of hands and really means nothing.

As played on flop, I like turn check behind: stops us from being c/r by bluffs and monsters (I don't think we like calling a cr), it keeps our losses to AA-QQ/Jx down, it allows us draw to beat those hands, villain is drawing to 2 - 3 outs if he is behind, and finally, 77-TT I think is more likely to call a river bet (meh, that last reason isn't huge, but maybe).

As played on turn, I coudn't be arsed with shoving this river to make AA-KK fold - I think he b/f those on the river if he missed his turn c/r, and will often look up your shove, as will AQ sometimes, while 77-TT will very often fold.

........

Excellent flop discussion. I've been raising here a bit more recently with mixed results. I'm kinda thinking both raise/call must be ok against an unknown. The upsides/downsides seem to balance out (and mainly related to the fact we usually have at least 30% equity here in most situations, so taking it easy on the flop can't be that bad once he checks).
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