if he plays a set like that.. than he is a ****** idiot
you do realize that if he is a nit or smartplayer... he would raise on flop with anything good
and yes QQ and JJ and even TT would smallbet it on turn as a value/protect bet against FD
maybe fd which hit something... or idk
also hero could frontbet turn ... and yes potcontrol is good but this is just one of the ways you could play this hand

I don't think flatting w/ a set in villain's spot here is as terrible as you are letting on. Against someone who's paying attention and has a clue, yes, raising is probably better. But against your average 50nl player who is going to be stacking off w/ KK on this turn 99% of the time, flatting the set IP on the flop isn't that bad.

Maybe AhKh, but not any other combos on this board with a solid reg. left to act.

are you ****ing kidding me ?
he should be screeming to put money in the pot with set there
also not protecting your strong hand on a drawyboard.. dude ... wtf ?!?
calling with set is absolutly terrible at least on lowlimits against unknow player
btw.. i dont like your thinking "against average 50nl player" etc..
OP didnt give any specific stat or tell and here you should give advice like you are playing against good TAG player.. and you should assume that all of your unknow players are good untill you findout they are not
anyway..
i would bet 1/2 pot b/c it's enough and you dont commit yourself and i would fold to a raise
and this way you skip tricky spots

Nope not my SN

Completely agree. If he played his set bad I will make a note of it, but I am not giving anyone but a bad player credit here for slow playing a set on a drawy board.

"and you should assume that all of your unknow players are good untill you findout they are not"

this is a level right?

I see these "this is a level" alot what does that mean BTW

level... like what you put on a the ground to see if it's balanced

so in asking, "is this a level", we are really asking "is your thinking lopsided or balanced"

ahh ok

You do realize that I never said he was a smart player? You shouldn't assume everyone knows how to play perfect poker at 50NL. Obviously a set SHOULD raise here, but just because they should do it doesn't mean they always do. You're giving unknowns way too much credit here.

I think its an ok play to flat with a set and keep the fish in from villains perspective.


Edit* read the hand wrong but above still applies.

i shove for value

An unknown NL50 player is capable of all kinds of plays that aren't good. Most NL50 players are not good TAG players, especially ones we have no data on. I would never assume a NL50 unkown was good until I find out otherwise. I'd assume they were somewhere between average and terrible, so basically that they are aware of the strength of their hand in comparison to the limited number of hands they've had in the past. With that said, OP did say that villain seemed solid, so I wouldn't treat him as a pure unknown.
Now, this seems more like a level. (500 plus posts, I guess it must be) Hands you beat fold. Hands that beat you almost always stack you.
Are there posters that level left and right in an attempt to confuse/ lower the level of play of their opponent pool?

Didn't read all of thread, just sort of skimmed the first page then skipped to then end; been drinking too lazy to read it all. It seems like an argument just breaks out about whether player behind can have a set or not.

One thing that glares at me reading the hand history is bet sizes on the flop. One player donks for 1/8 pot and we raise less than the size of the pot before the player's donk. Our raise is what, maybe $1.50-2.00 more than what we would have cbet? So, why the big deal about the player behind us "over calling"? It's not like it was a donk of $6 into an $8 pot, then we raised to $24 and he cold called. I see a whole lot more draws than sets / two pair and therefore just lead out the turn. Check/folding seems super weak.

Thoughts?

[NL noob with FL background who has read a few NL books]

MP1 fish limps, Hero isoraises once again, solid CO calls, MP1 calls.

If CO has seen Hero isoraise MP1 frequently, does he open his calling range? He gets more implied odds for speculative hands with fish in the pot. CO also covers both fish and Hero.

Hero's SPR is ~6.4 on the flop. Decent for an overpair but this is 3-way.


Fish donks small "let me draw cheap" -like (although this might not apply 3-way pots). PFR Hero raises about the same size he might have c-bet anyways, in 3-way flop that might provide some draws. As CO has seen Hero isoraise MP1 earlier he could assume he might still do that with some UI overs here too. Hero's isolation PFR-range should at least contain plenty of UI overs to this flop.

CO could have 34s/67s OESD, or a FD. Calling here makes sense with those, ~2:1 immediate but decent implied odds if MP1 calls and Hero holds an overpair as Hero is fast approaching commitment threshold.

CO could have 8x like, 78s/89s/86s/T8s. Calling with these is a bit iffy, and dependent on CO assuming Hero could raise flop with UI overs. CO could then plan to see if Hero 2-barrels on turn and give up then.

Or CO could have a set 55/22/88. Hero rarely has a draw here, MP1 might but he is also bad enough to call too much on turn too. Waiting to turn with a set is believable here. It might induce a shove or call from fish MP1 etc.


Turn, fish folds, Hero checks. This now looks either like whiffed overs giving up or some over pair practicing pot control. Hero has shown some weakness all the same.

This is the spot where CO can still bluff with the leverage of a river bet behind. If he waits to river, Hero knows how much he needs to call to see a showdown.

If CO holds a set Hero rarely has more than two outs. If Hero has UI OCs, he is not going to call a bet. With an overpair he might. With a set CO would still like to build a pot and try to get Hero to stack off with an over pair.

If CO has 8x or smaller pocket pair, he is more pressed to bet turn and exercise pot control on river if Hero calls. 8x wouldn't probably be that disappointed on taking this pot down here. Such hands probably cannot take more action than one bet on turn or river.

If CO happens to have a draw he has two options: take a free card and possibly get some value from an overpair on river or if UI overs hit - AND CO improves at the same time. If CO has a FD or OESD, he can be pretty sure Hero has a better hand.

If CO thinks on deeper levels, he might now recognize that his flop call was a show of strength (perhaps he even called partially because it was a possibility to do so and it'd improve his chances of stealing the pot using his positional advantage later on) and that he can use that and the 'hammer of future bets' to bluff the pot now while still having some outs to fall back on if called.


After lengthy discussion here, I think the most likely hand CO has is the set and he is trying to bet sufficiently small to keep Hero calling and tie him into the pot. So I fold too, as played. If Hero calls, he is committed to showdown here.

haven't read the responses but c/f on the turn is pretty bad imo. I understand that usually a player who just cold calls a bet and a raise on the flop is going to be really strong a ton of the time, but this is a little different as the first bet is from a donk and is tiny in relation to the pot, CO doesn't have to have such a strong range to be calling here. He can absolutely have flush draws, 67, 99-JJ, probably even 8x (if there are combos of that in his preflop range).

I bet/fold turn, and if he calls turn again I probably c/f most rivers unless he's shown a propensity to bluff with missed draws or randomly turn one pair hands into bluffs in spots like this.

wat luhlz.

donk small/call is never a set on this flop. When I call flop and turn goot like this brick I c/shove for value.

villain didn't donk/call the flop... other villain overcalled the donk and my raise.