Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $58.85
BB: $50.00
UTG: $50.00
UTG+1: $50.00
Hero (MP1): $67.20
MP2: $66.20
CO: $99.15
BTN: $46.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is MP1 with K K
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2, Hero raises to $8, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $6

Flop: ($16.75) 5 3 J (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $12, UTG+1 raises to $42 all in, Hero folds

Final Pot: $40.75
UTG+1 wins $38.80
(Rake: $1.95)

Villain is 14/10/1 with a fold to 3B of 77% over 1000 hands, a passive, tight-nit

Was this a standard fold? I can't really see myself being ahead of villains range here, I am not sure if a player like this would do this with AsJx, I could only see him calling me PF with JJ,QQ,AK and I dont think he would push here with QQs here either.. I could be wrong though.

Anyways, was this too weak or standard?

Easy fold here, you dont beat a whole lot and he put in an over 3x raise. Pick a better spot and move on is my line here.

I love grunching, but most of the time this is exactly how i play the hand.

What do you mean?

(1) It is a clear fold.
(2) I think your assigned range for his 3b calling range is prolly too narrow.
(3) It is arguable whether you get more value 3betting KK here or flatcalling PF. You are representing KK+AKs - so it is an interesting PF decision point.
(4) The value bet on the flop is actually pretty thin.
- it is what is described as 'pseudo-thin', that is that are many hands that are behind with alot of equity 9-12 outs and a fair few hands that crush you but there will not be many hands which you can valuetown with confidence

i.e. you will face alot of c/f and alot of c/shoves here and his range for c/c are very few.

Now it is totally unreasonable to check behind given the danger of another spade peeling......but it is my opinion that because there are not many hands that can check/call + I do not think he will bluff you very often without 40%+ EV = I think your flop bet should be closer to half pot.

therefore - $8-10 bet/fold.

I generally am open to playing hands many different ways, or at least introducing new ways to look at a hand (grunching is differentiating from the consensus about a hand).

However, this hand is super clear-cut I believe

I agree with digger that thinking about flatting PF here deserves attention, and that we're getting very little value by betting (which isn't to say we shouldn't)

I believe grunching is giving your opinion on the hand without reading the previous replies first.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...h-mean-147791/

I dont getting, why just call PF against a nitty player? TT/JJ/QQ/AK are not getting away, so why not build a bigger pot while I am strong?

Also, I don't really like to slowplay those hands PF, everytime raise with a mid pair and someone calls and the flop gives me a set, and the action goes until we both put the money in and they show me AA, I personally think they are morons.

If someone raises to 3x and I'm on the botton and 3bet for 12bb and then they 4bet for 40bb, I can just call IP and just raise their cbet allin on the flop, flat calling a raise here just seems criminal to me.

If I just flat called his raise and this flop came and he check/raises me, I would hate my life, as played, I dont mind it so much.

against a spewy fish i might cry and call here, but those arent terrible stats so i'd rather fold

These are exactly the hands that a nit will fold when OOP and you 3bet his UTG+1 open from MP.

You don't always have to play for stacks with AA/KK. Put the player on a range and play appropriately to that range.

Seems fine to me, in the heat of the moment I might call (Since I always think they (semi-)bluff when they do this but even against AsX for example you're basically flipping.

Best case flipping, worst case crushed and this combined against this player makes this a fold I think.

i dont fold in 3 bet pots

I'm going to assign this range based on possible continuance range in EP:

Board: Js 3s 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.410% 26.99% 02.41% 4276 382.50 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 70.590% 68.18% 02.41% 10799 382.50 { AcAs, AdAs, AhAs, KcKs, KdKs, KhKs, QcQs, QdQs, QhQs, JJ, AsKs, AsQs, AcKs, AdKs, AhKs, AsKc, AsKd, AsKh }

He might be folding some of these to a 3bet, but it doesn't really make a difference since removing AK or JJ only changes our equity between 25%-30%.

So we're getting 2.34:1 on a call = 29.9% required equity making this a 0EV call at best with 0 weighting.

i am never folding this hand ever!
he is not doing that with a made hand and we are ahead of all non made hands
i cant belive this is a standard fold for most of the ppl here...

^ the problem is that his non made hands catch up too often.

You need to combine the times we are ahead and still lose 33%-50% of the time with the times we are behind and are crushed. The end result isn't pretty. See my Stove above.

Example: these hands - except for QQ - are not in this player's range but it demonstrates how strong our hand actually is in this situation compared to how we think about an overpair:

Board: Js 3s 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.475% 47.47% 00.00% 470 0.00 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 52.525% 52.53% 00.00% 520 0.00 { AsJd }

_____________________
Even something like this:

Board: Js 3s 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.869% 56.87% 00.00% 563 0.00 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 43.131% 43.13% 00.00% 427 0.00 { KsJd }

____________________
Or this:

Board: Js 3s 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.879% 57.88% 00.00% 573 0.00 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 42.121% 42.12% 00.00% 417 0.00 { QdQs }

_____________________

Board: Js 3s 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.909% 60.91% 00.00% 603 0.00 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 39.091% 39.09% 00.00% 387 0.00 { 8s7d }
_____________________

Board: Js 3s 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.202% 50.20% 00.00% 497 0.00 { KdKh }
Hand 1: 49.798% 49.80% 00.00% 493 0.00 { 9s3d }



We're flipping with a "non made" 93o. Now go combine all those 1 hands with the times he does have a flush or set or AA.

Clearly weighting that range appropriately is important.

The statement ' he is never doing this with made hands' is hopeless flawed and should be ignored.

What made hands wouldn't make this move? Sets, flushes or AA don't want to see a 4th spade because it either moves you ahead, or kills their action, so they c/r hoping for you to call with a lower pair or a draw.