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50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? 50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here?

01-03-2010 , 10:55 AM
No stats on villains, only ~15 hands at the table so far.

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $50.00
UTG+1: $59.85
MP: $73.35
CO: $62.70
Hero (BTN): $59.20
SB: $28.00
BB: $20.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with K K
2 folds, MP raises to $1.50, CO calls $1.50, Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, MP calls $5.50, CO calls $5.50

Flop: ($21.75) 4 J A (3 players)
MP checks, CO checks, Hero bets $12.50, MP calls $12.50, CO folds

Turn: ($46.75) 7 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

River: ($46.75) 8 (2 players)
MP bets $53.85 all in, Hero folds


-3b pre is standard.
-cbet seems like the obvious choice after getting checked back to me.
-Once called, I didn't see a reason for a double barrel. The only likely hand that I'm ahead of is QQ. Some other possible hands in his range: AA, KK, JJ, AK, AQ + the chance of other random hands if he is actually looser than I know about.
-Same reasoning for fold on river. Only ahead of QQ and bluffs for the most part.
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 11:05 AM
pretty easy snap fold against nearly everyone, fish don't shove here without a hand that has u beat and regs will v.rarley turn a hand into a bluff trying to get u to fold TP or KK in this spot. I would comment that your 3b size pre is too big, but u got 2 callers so perhaps not lol.

Key thing here is why r u betting the flop when u can check it back.
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillJ
-cbet seems like the obvious choice after getting checked back to me.
-Once called, I didn't see a reason for a double barrel. The only likely hand that I'm ahead of is QQ. Some other possible hands in his range: AA, KK, JJ, AK, AQ + the chance of other random hands if he is actually looser than I know about.
-Same reasoning for fold on river. Only ahead of QQ and bluffs for the most part.
There is so many contradictions and false assumptions here in your thinking.

At 50nl you have to start THINKING about WHY you are doing stuff, how much of villain's range are you getting value from or are you getting valuetowned? What is the best way to get value out of villain's range? etc. etc. Reasoning like 'seemed like the obvious choice' isn't going to cut it.
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 11:24 AM
lol? what do you think you beat? This has nothing to do with beeing weak-thight....

You are weak-fish if you call that bet, pretty sure ur miles behind.

I think AK JJ or AA is in villains range here pretty much all day. I don't thin he has 44 for obv reasons.
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkDonkDonkDonk
There is so many contradictions and false assumptions here in your thinking.

At 50nl you have to start THINKING about WHY you are doing stuff, how much of villain's range are you getting value from or are you getting valuetowned? What is the best way to get value out of villain's range? etc. etc. Reasoning like 'seemed like the obvious choice' isn't going to cut it.
Fair enough. Which assumptions are flawed though? Is my assumption of his range wrong?

Is the point here that I shouldn't be cbetting for the same reason that I explained why not to bet turn or call river? (ie. I'm really only value betting against QQ or random crap hands?)
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillJ
Fair enough. Which assumptions are flawed though? Is my assumption of his range wrong?

Is the point here that I shouldn't be cbetting for the same reason that I explained why not to bet turn or call river? (ie. I'm really only value betting against QQ or random crap hands?)
I don't think there is anything wrong with your range estimation, it's just trying to get value from that range. In this case you get more from hands that you beat by checking back and allowing them to bluff/feel better about calling a bet later on.

Sorry if my post sounded harsh or anything, I wasn't trying to beat on you.
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 11:41 AM
why are you betting the flop? this is a pretty standard checkback
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brutti
lol? what do you think you beat? This has nothing to do with beeing weak-thight....

You are weak-fish if you call that bet, pretty sure ur miles behind.

I think AK JJ or AA is in villains range here pretty much all day. I don't thin he has 44 for obv reasons.
I agree with your assessment of the river bet. I guess my question wasn't really whether or not I should call the river. I just know I played it badly because I ended up in the position of having to fold and lose a decent size pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkDonkDonkDonk
I don't think there is anything wrong with your range estimation, it's just trying to get value from that range. In this case you get more from hands that you beat by checking back and allowing them to bluff/feel better about calling a bet later on.

Sorry if my post sounded harsh or anything, I wasn't trying to beat on you.
No offense taken, I'm a big boy and can handle criticism. Thanks for the input.
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyStraights
I would comment that your 3b size pre is too big, but u got 2 callers so perhaps not lol.
3bet size seems totally standard to me?
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 01:22 PM
I think 3b size is fine if you think you'll get 2 callers since you'll have an SPR < 4 and the decision is easy to stack off on any/most none A high board.

3 way in a 3b pot, A high board, low SPR, I think I'm not even bothering cbetting this flop because the cbet gives you 1 bet left so if you plan to fold I think you're burning money, note that it would be different if it was headsup.
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 01:27 PM
The only worst hand in his range there that calls a cbet is QQ. Everything else likely has us beat. We turn our hand with showdown value into a weak flop bluff which, given the size of your bet, will be looked up 100% of the time by Ax. Check behind here is correct, especially given that it's mw.
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote
01-03-2010 , 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPowell222
3bet size seems totally standard to me?
I think u fold out a ton when u make it $7 pre, and its harder to balance as now all your light 3b's are getting expensive. On this table it looks good, but I think $6 would be a lot better, your hardly allowing someone to set mine u, and your more likely to get TT-JJ, AQs, AK to play with you IME.
50NL KK 3b pot - Too weak/tight here? Quote

      
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