I think I hate the way I played this.

CO was a semi-frequent 2p2er who I know played higher before, not sure what his main game is now. He is running 15/11 after 110 hands.

SB was a 53/6 fish after 35

I hate my flop raise, but I'm curious how others play it? Should I just dump it pre?

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Hero (BB): $50.00
UTG: $50.00
UTG+1: $101.25
MP: $20.00
CO: $56.50
BTN: $63.45
SB: $60.60

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BB with 9 8
3 folds, CO raises to $1.50, 1 fold, SB calls $1.25, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($4.50) 8 6 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50, Hero raises to $11.50, CO calls $8, SB folds

Turn: ($31.00) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $17.50, CO folds

Why are you raising flop?

No idea honestly. I saw top pair and flush draw and all the pretty hearts and had a brain fart, as I said, in retrospect I hate my play.

I hate spots like this, maybe I should dump it pre.

Trying to get a foothold on 50NL..not doing very well.
But why are we not raising flop? Shouldn't we play strong draws as a set?

to isolate fish, for value against him and to potentially make CO fold a better hand, or at least a hand that still has some equity against us are a few reasons from the top of my head...........

You're a better player than I am, and I really appreciate your contributions to 2p2.

In case anyone is still reading this post … .

You wouldn't want to dump the hand pf. It's a small amount for you to call, and the hand has potential.

You don't get an open-ended straight flush draw every day. I'd play it strongly on the turn. If I lost the hand, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

I like that.

I never said we shouldn't raise it (although I'm not convinced we should without further reads) I was just asking why. I've yet to see a good reason. What does our raise fold out? What does our raise get value from?

Call to keep fish in pot.

I was reading the new messages in this thread, and realized that my post may have indicated a basic misunderstanding of poker. It's true that you have an open-ended straight flush draw, but you have only two outs to hit it. The main point is that you have a flush, and don't want to give someone with one higher heart the correct odds to draw.

top pair is not a draw vs a range that includes hands we beat

i bet if you get stacks in on the flop, you're never ahead

i personally dont like to flat here preflop, but i am a losing player...are we really hitting/stealing enough of the time post flop to make calling with 89s profitiable? how spewy is the fish?? I prefer a fold or a 3b bluff (maybe 3b to iso fish into calling and check/folding flop)?

That's a good question. The check-raise on the flop was quite aggressive.

I'll use an example. The SB called the CO's raise, but folded to the CR. Suppose that the SB had A T. With just two overcards, a fold would be correct. The back-door draws to a flush or straight obviously don't justify a call.

On the other hand, if the SB had seen the turn with those cards, a draw to the nut flush would be harder to fold. The hero could lose to a higher flush.

Another example: The CO was no doubt happy with his or her hand. Nonetheless, the CR on the flop did get value from that player.

As I've indicated in this thread, I'm not one of the experts on this forum; but that's my 2p2 cents.

Donking is very effective here

Donking is very money, i agree.

Interesting hand. A case could be made for 3betting pre depending on CO's steal, fold to 3bet/resteal, and fold to cbet numbers. It also has the added benefit of either taking it down right there or maybe getting HU IP vs the SB fish. You have to at least call with it! I would usually just call. If you fold then welcome to the nit of the month club and I will never speak to you again.

On the flop we are vulnerable to non-heart overcards and higher flush draws (if they are even out there which is doubtful but possible). My usual line with this type of holding is to make a PSB on the flop as it disguises the flush draw part of our hand plus we could easily be ahead here. I'm really hoping to get raised in which case I 3bet shove. This could fold out all higher flush draws. Unless someone flopped a set we have tons of equity and are the favorite in the hand, and even against a set we have lots of outs.

As played you have to bet the turn to keep a higher FD from drawing out on us for free, NH sir.

Garon

I don't understand.

We a flip to AA and slightly ahead on AhKh on the flop. I be very happy to be able to shove on the flop if possible.

i didnt say getting it all in would be -EV, I just said you'd probably not have the best hand. +EV and optimal aren't always the same thing

If you don't c/r this flop with a strong draw, then you only c/r with sets...isnt that a bit exploitable?

sure it is, but as far as I know, there exist other hand strengths besides draws and sets.

There is a difference between AJhh A8hh and 87hh imo.

Does donking get us more money after we bet the turn than c/r here does and hoping the fish comes along?

We don't have a strong draw though.. we have a weak made hand and a 9 high flush draw. It's kinda hard to play this hand wrong because we have a lot of equity against calling ranges if we get it in otf + we get stronger hands to fold.

I think you played this great given the action. If CO bet and it was folded to you I think calling is better.

There isn't much point checking this back to the TAG because you wouldn't really expect him to fire air at this board 3way with a fish in the hand very often.

I like just betting for value from the fish's random pairs and gutshots. If bu raises it's a very +EV 3bet shove.

Only if our opponents are expoiting us, and I find it hard to believe that many players at this limit are doing so.


Question about donking the flop. Would you do so with the intention of jamming to a raise?

From the button, yeah. Your top pair doesn't have any value against the range that he's repping so it's best just to turn it into a semi-bluff. He's definitely raising air some % of the time and is definitely capable of folding better on this board some % of the time and you're not at all far behind when the money's in the middle.

If the small blind raises it depends on his sizing, but I'm generally looking to call because 3bet shoving as a semi-bluff against a fish is a complete waste of time and he'll play the turn and river epically badly oop. Usually when he raises it's a minraise though, which is obviously awesome.