50NL Damn shortstackers and their all ins...... - Page 2 - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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50NL Damn shortstackers and their all ins......

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08-10-2008 , 02:12 AM

#26

richbrown360

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 4,571

Well its proven in this thread that it is a marginal call so I think call or fold isn't bad either way. I prob call and ride the variance train.

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08-10-2008 , 02:47 AM

#27

*Split*

See my coaching listing

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 9,261

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerscaresme

+1
Also, if you laydown here, you are gonna get beat down by decent SS's.

Once you CALL them with 88 from CO-BTN,
they are more hesitant to shove the next time..
This sets a precendent that can take away their perceived FE imo.
Maybe ^^ is just a misperception on my part,
but I'm speaking from experience @ 25-100

Also, wo reads I'd range this guy on AXs+
Plus the money will prob stay on the table for a bit,
and SS's usually only know how to bet.
.

ur kinda spoton here

also...no folding this. u fold against a known solid SS...not an unknown one. u can properly assume that the majority of SS's are mildy ******ed, an thus assign a much looser range for them (an thus 99 is doing plenty fine).

*this is coming from some1 that does SS quite a bit. Not just some random dude spouting off about disliking and spiting SS's

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08-10-2008 , 03:38 AM

#28

HappyPixel

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,586

This is a pretty marginal spot but I agree we should be putting him on a range somewhere between a good and a bad short-stack, so I'd call.

Also, I hate short-stacks, so stacking one makes me much happier than losing 20BBs pisses me off, so it's very +HappinessEV imo.

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08-10-2008 , 03:57 AM

#29

BotOnTilt

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,509

I hate calling pushes with 99 since I'm usually flipping or crushed. Some of these reasons for calling were mentioned:

1. By calling you show shorties have little FE and that you won't budge
2. Raising and calling with a smallish pair might show the table that your are here to gamble, and give you more action in the future
3. If you win, it can tilt the shortie and make him play worse
4. If he doubles up he is likely to leave and give the seat to a full stacker

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08-10-2008 , 06:40 AM

#30

Elvenkind

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 489

Quote:

Originally Posted by Split Suit

u fold against a known solid SS...not an unknown one.

I call vs a known solid SS way faster than vs an unknown. The known solid SS is probably just abusing FE with any random hand that, even when called, has some equity (44, KJ, A5 etc) while the unknown might not be that good.

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08-10-2008 , 08:12 AM

#31

RapidEvolution

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 6,932

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hrwa

Seems like this doesn't get enough love:

Pooh-Bah - Crushing Short Stacks

Very long post, but absolutely worthwhile.

I came back to this thread solely to link to this. TY Hrwa. I'll quote it again because it's THAT important.

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08-10-2008 , 09:20 AM

#32

jack21221

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 675

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tight Is Right

I agree, but its only .2% EV.

And since I hate variance, folding isnt a terrible mistake at this spot.

So you admit that folding is a mistake (albeit not a "terrible" one), but you advise folding anyway?

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08-10-2008 , 10:06 AM

#33

Tight Is Right

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 441

Geez. I fold you dont.

Where is the problem?

Keep feeding the short stackers if you want to, its ok with me.

No worries!

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08-10-2008 , 10:33 AM

#34

Elvenkind

grinder

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 489

Why would it be feeding the shortstackers when we make a +EV decision?

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08-10-2008 , 03:17 PM

#35

juukkk

centurion

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 172

If we have only +0.2% EV don't we lose our advantage to the 5% rake and thus becoming losers in the long-run?

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08-10-2008 , 04:34 PM

#36

CalledDownLight

Toonces the Posting Bot

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 88,413

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tight Is Right

A TRUE Short Stacker wont shove with AJ.

Since he is unknown ist not worth taking the coin flip, thats all I am saying.

by true do you mean terrible? Every good SSer ever shoves AJ here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadaces9999

Knowledge is power in NLH. If you dont have any knowledge on villian how can you put him on a hand range? Ill give him the benift of the doubt and put him on TT-AA and AK,AQs. Cause thats what good shortstackers usually play for all ins.
You would need JJ-AA and AK to make this call. otherwise just fold.

thats what bad nitty SSers ranges look like. I promise these SSers are not good.

Between this and the other thread you guys are kind of embarassing yourselves. Good SSers dont have defined ranges. There are spots where a good SSer with shove 98s and such knowing they have 0 FE.

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08-11-2008 , 03:56 AM

#37

onthelevee

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 86

I call, get shown AA, suck a 9, fist pump then berate the ss with gems such as 'well played donkey' and 'gtfo' etc..
This play is mega +EV for my mental health..

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08-11-2008 , 06:43 AM

#38

GrumpyB

adept

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 755

Taking this slightly (OK, completely) off topic, I wanted to create a text file of favourite replies to cut and paste, but the paste into the chat box didn't work.

Personally, I avoid 'well played donkey' but like to reply (especially when I really did play like a donkey) .....

"I thought you were bluffing"
"I had the pot odds" (hyper +EV when it just isn't true)
"I had great implied odds" (only to be used when calling an all-in)

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08-11-2008 , 08:35 AM

#39

pokerscaresme

adept

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 983

'Thought you were bluffing... plus I had huge reverse pot odds'
or just throw in sng terms like bubble play..

may not be ev+ but it's more fun than a ton of pokertables beeping & flashing

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08-11-2008 , 08:50 AM

#40

chip-star

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,171

I dont think it's a good idea to always assume a short stacker is a 5/4 type player until you know otherwise.

From what i've experianced at $25nl people are shoving all sorts of hands before and after your action. I've looked people up who have turned up with hands like 69c, Ax, K8s, T9 ect.

Against an unknown i'd assume a hand like 9s would have atleast 60% equity vs their range before even counting the money you've already invested.

Many short stackers are just scared fish.

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08-11-2008 , 10:38 AM

#41

mastertop101

adept

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 723

5% rake might very well make that possibly +EV decision to -EV...

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08-11-2008 , 12:04 PM

#42

I vi ii V7

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 9,998

Quote:

Originally Posted by Night-Hawk

you are incorrect. i have 100,000 hands exp at this level. they are not total fish at all. they almost always have a pocket pair or AK.

it will be a race.

More like, they have Ax, 22+, KTo+, 89s+.

Sure there are horribly tight SS at 25NL but most of them have a pretty wide shove range.

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