Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? 50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this?

05-21-2014 , 04:20 PM
[converted_hand][hand_history]$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #27115651

CO: $52.02 (104 bb)
BTN: $29.25 (58.5 bb)
SB: $52.49 (105 bb)
BB: $70.20 (140.4 bb)
UTG+1: $92.39 (184.8 bb)
UTG+2: $41.98 (84 bb)
MP1: $23.71 (47.4 bb)
MP2: $43.43 (86.9 bb)
Hero (MP3): $101.68 (203.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 2 2
UTG+1 raises to $1.12, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.12, 4 folds

Flop: ($2.99) 6 2 5 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2.50, Hero calls $2.50

Turn: ($7.99) 6 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $5.99, UTG+1 raises to $21, Hero raises to $36.01, UTG+1 raises to $88.77 and is all-in, Hero calls $52.76

River: ($185.53) 9 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $185.53 pot ($4.00 rake)
Final Board: 6 2 5 6 9
UTG+1 showed 5 5 and won $181.53 ($89.14 net)
Hero showed 2 2 and lost (-$92.39 net)

Villain is 21/16 reg. We have some history of playing back at each other, but mostly late in position and from the blinds. He has started to 4bet me light. Is this a cooler or could I have gotten away from it? Different line perhaps? Thanks

Last edited by ATCWIZ; 05-21-2014 at 04:21 PM. Reason: wrong button
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-21-2014 , 04:24 PM
I don't re-raise the turn, we're scaring off the few hands we do beat that could have taken this line (AA KK QQ)

But you'll have probably lost your stack either way... Set over set is always a cooler
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-21-2014 , 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HUplayer
Set over set is always a cooler
This. Usually what happens, especially when the board pairs. I'm getting it in.
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-21-2014 , 05:35 PM
no, obviously it is not, if you don't know this then you shouldn't be playing 50nl. Sorry to sound rude but this an absolute no-brainer.
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-21-2014 , 06:29 PM
At the risk of losing credibility for saying this, I don't think this deep this is a cooler.

Quote:
if you don't know this then you shouldn't be playing 50nl. Sorry to sound rude but this an absolute no-brainer.
Fwiw, this is definitely not true. Just figured I'd tell you. Thinking like ''herpderp set need stack off'' is rather bad because there's plenty of situations where set over set just isn't a cooler. or I should say, plenty of spots vs certain villains.
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-21-2014 , 07:06 PM
Fwiw, on this board, this deep vs a not fishy player I don't see why we have a 3betting range on the flop. We're overplaying our hand, giving villain the chance to fold his bluffs(doubt he plays AA/KK like this fwiw, also doubt he bluffs but still) and I seriously doubt you guys have build any form of dynamic that suggests this is ever anything else but a set over set(or 56s) situation at an FR table.
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-21-2014 , 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzbourg
Fwiw, on this board, this deep vs a not fishy player I don't see why we have a 3betting range on the flop.
I'm also definitely not 3betting this flop.
Btw. if we call UTGs raise - What if he bets big on the turn? You calling?
And river?
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-21-2014 , 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzbourg
At the risk of losing credibility for saying this, I don't think this deep this is a cooler.

Fwiw, this is definitely not true. Just figured I'd tell you. Thinking like ''herpderp set need stack off'' is rather bad because there's plenty of situations where set over set just isn't a cooler. or I should say, plenty of spots vs certain villains.
100% agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzbourg
Fwiw, on this board, this deep vs a not fishy player I don't see why we have a 3betting range on the flop.
you obv mean turn, but i 100% agree.

3betting turn is actually really bad with any hand here.
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-21-2014 , 09:39 PM
Fold PF unless there's a drooler behind
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-22-2014 , 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagpuss
Fold PF unless there's a drooler behind
I thought calling was fine provided there isn't a habitual squeezer behind? Hero is in position against a laggy deep stack with a hand that can flop big. Just sucks that he was outflopped on this occasion.

Why do you dissagree?
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-22-2014 , 02:57 AM
i don't play 50 but a set of 22s in a deep pot against a reg it´s not like a super sick big hand... get overseted a ton.

in the book "easy game" there is a good chapter about the coolers and relationeted with deep play, talks about hands like this one, and that its not like always " its a coller it happens"...

what is sick is that in 5cents games ( offcourse people are awful just too nitty and a lol game) but, to a 400bb pot - 20 bucks lol, in this spot (regs nits and soke donkeys) they will show off with quads and top set almost everytime, it´s kinda sick lol.
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-22-2014 , 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HUplayer
Set over set is always a cooler
Bold claim.
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-22-2014 , 03:06 AM
Spoiler:
A lot of players have a difficult time adjusting when the stacks get deeper. The important
thing to understand about deepstacked play is that implied and reverse implied odds become
more significant. While it’s probably rarely (if ever) a mistake to shove all-in with bottom set
100bb deep, it could become quite dangerous to become attached to a non-nut hand as stacks get
deeper.
I can remember one specific example presented by Samoleus on this subject. The
question was this: You’re playing HU. You raise 99 on the button, and villain reraises. You
call. The flop is A93r. How deep do you have to be before you don’t get all the money in? At
100bb this is a dream flop. At 200bb, we’re still going with our hand. What about 500bb?
1000bb? At some point, our hand starts to adopt reverse implied odds instead of implied odds.
The point is this: when deepstacked, the nuts matter. “Coolers”, the classic
“unavoidable” situations where all the money goes in (usually when the best hand and the second
best hand are very close in value, like an A-high flush over a K-high flush) suddenly become far
more important.


The moral of this story is that while nut-type hands (nut flushes, nut straights, and high sets)
increase in value, non-nut hands (non-nut flushes, low straights, low sets) decrease in value due
to larger reverse implied odds.
Understanding how coolers work is an important concept for deepstacked play. If we
have KK, and a villain sitting with 50bb shoves all-in preflop, we can’t fold. If he has AA, we
got coolered. Most players just assume that coolers are equal for all players, and that there’s no
possible way to control who gets coolered more or less. This is way off
. We can control which
hands we play, and how we play them. I’m very prone to 4-bet AA every time somebody 3-bets
me, because I cooler a ton of hands—AK, KK, QQ, maybe even JJ and AQ all 5-bet shove in
preflop. However, what about QQ? Now, KK and AA shove in preflop (bad for us), AK shoves
in preflop (negligible), and maybe JJ and AQ. It’s bad for us if we “maybe” cooler somebody
sometimes, yet we find ourselves getting coolered far more often. (Caveat: Obviously if
somebody is 3-betting a ton, you can 4-bet QQ both for thin value and to collect dead money
which will more than compensate for times when you get coolered. Or, if somebody is
extremely likely to shove hands like JJ, AQ, and TT preflop, by all means 4-bet QQ for value).

In general, though, keep an eye on which hands let you cooler the other guy and which hands get
you coolered.
The last thing to remember about deepstacked play is that your fold equity doesn’t
usually increase as much as it theoretically should. In truth, players should be folding hands like
overpairs or top pair much more often because of the additional reverse implied odds. However,
this just doesn’t usually happen. So, you can increase your bluffing frequencies somewhat
because it’s theoretically correct, but remember there’s a difference between game theory
optimal (GTO) and practically optimal. This means that you shouldn’t go nuts bluffing when
deepstacked, because people still don’t fold as often as they should.


Font: easy game - Andrew Seidman, Chapter 25
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-22-2014 , 03:14 AM
Kind of obvious but as stacks get deeper and deepers people's stack off ranges get narrower and narrower until it's only the nuts. Villain does seem to be a laggy reg but since he's not a fish his stack off range this deep is pretty much only boats especially since his opening range from EP is tight and he knows that you know that. Since you have the worst possible boat, you're behind his entire stack off range. I'd call the turn raise for pot control.
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
05-22-2014 , 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Csaba
I thought calling was fine provided there isn't a habitual squeezer behind? Hero is in position against a laggy deep stack with a hand that can flop big. Just sucks that he was outflopped on this occasion.

Why do you dissagree?
The guy's playing a fairly wide range so our implied odds somewhat drop and he also 2.25xed which is gonna encourage other people to join the party behind us when we really want to be able to utilise position here. I'd most likely flat the hand in the CO though so flatting in the HJ can't be terrible.
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
12-03-2015 , 12:19 PM
Quote:
Kind of obvious but as stacks get deeper and deepers people's stack off ranges get narrower and narrower until it's only the nuts.
No, Ranges still include bluffcatchers even for absurd amounts of xx*Pot

There was a discussion that even 10000BB deep one should not fold the nutflush on 3connected+same color board(i.e. Axs on 567s) (assuming a reasonable potsize for the river and not 2 BB)

It basicly boiled down to calling 99% (or some absurd high number) and folding the rest of the times

In real live tho one could make an argument for just never folding this and wouldnt play that much of from gto

Also if you only call with the nuts(like folding Khi flush on 3 of that suit) then you will lose money, you still have to bluffcatch otherwise the opponent will bet 100% of the time and you will muck 99%.

Anything above can be said to stackoffranges too...
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote
12-05-2015 , 07:30 PM
To go ahead and echo what's already been said, 3 betting turn period is just bad for all the previously stated reasons. Also, It's a cooler, but potentially one that could have been avoided. We do have FH but it's the nut low FH against a seemingly very solid reg in FR 50NL. I'm not good enough to fold it but better players ought to be, esp. someone grinding 20k+hands/month
50NL Cooler or could I have gotten away from this? Quote

      
m