Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $81.15
UTG+1: $66.65
HERO: $52.25
MP2: $70.05
MP3: $105.15
CO: $20
Button: $29.70
SB: $50.70
BB: $38.80

Pre-flop: (9 players) HERO is MP1 with Q Q
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, HERO raises to $2.5, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 8 8 4 ($7.75, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $7.75



Hero?? No reads.

You would be surprised what these players donkbet flops with. Without reads, I think the best play would be to get to showdown as cheaply as possible so you'll have reads in the future. You're WA/WB, so I'd take a passive line and call. If he gives up turn, I'd bet 1/2 pot or so. Fold to a raise obvi.

Don't like passive line with the FD out, personally.

I minimize AA KK in his range because of lack of LRR. Sucks if he's got 44, but I'm going for it here.

Seems a little spewy to me. Since the flush draw's the only one out there, we can definitely shut down once it hits. Otherwise, I prefer getting to showdown to get reads and keep the pot manageable. I always feel really silly when villain turns over 44 or 8x when we raise and get it in.

I think we need to raise this flop....I don't think any pp puts in any more money on the turn. So our ability to gain value from a WB hand of villains is minimal imo. The only thing out there is a flush draw that would provide us with more money, so we need to raise this flop imo.

Also, if villain has an 8 he is probably going to pot it each street as he has on this flop, so why wait?

i would have bet the flop to see where I stand. You didn't get re raised preflop so you're probably not facing AA KK, he may have A8, but I don't see any hand he could have that would have you beat here unless its A8, or if he really loves suited connectors he may have 78s or 89s. I would have bet the flop. Checking that flop without intending to check raise is just too passive IMO

i'm raising here to make the FD pay to see it. obviously you can c/f if another spade comes, but i don't see any hand that contains an 8 here that makes sense. if he has 44, so be it.

Err we got bet into... we didn't check. Also, I guess my point is that getting to showdown cheaply allows us to see exactly what our opponent had so we can react better next time we're in a similar situation. We sacrifice a little EV now in order to make more EV later. The worst thing I think that could happen is if this player happens to go nuts with like Asxs on this type of board, in which case I really think we're obligated to fold if he ends up 3-bet shoving flop. Of course, this doesn't pertain to the hand in question exactly, but it's a strategy that I've found that makes me a lot of money. I'm actually more in favor of raising a hand that has much less showdown value like AhKh for instance when donkbet to in this situation precisely because we don't have very good showdown value. I think calling down to get information on this relatively safe board is in itself +EV.

IMO, villain is on 22-77, 8x, flush draw or air

You'll rarely see an UTG player limp with an 8 unless it's A8. So, you only need to be worried about 44 or A8. That said, I'm probably leading out here with the hope of charging drawing hands to see the next card.

Check/calling totally screws you over. You're pretty much playing in the dark since villain could be betting a wide range of hands. Since you checked, you either have to raise if you think you're ahead or fold if you put villain on A8 or 44.

The UTG doesn't have 44. A full house isn't worried about a FD, he welcomes it. AA or KK would have rr pf. It is either a lower pair or A8. I'd either raise or fold. Calling is the worst option. With no reads, I'm folding. A8 fits the hand as played. Aggressive players aren't usually limp/calling UTG with pp. Passive players aren't usually betting into the pf aggressor with under pairs.

Thanks was really lost here

44 is in the wheelhouse of an UTG l/c.

I would say his range is=

99/1010/JJ/56/67/random spades

AA/KK/78/89/810s...I dont think he ever bets 44 here.

randoms are most likely to check made trips here, so in order of hands I'd be worried about it would go AA/KK, and then sometimes trips.

You need to raise it up here to about $25 and stick it in against shove.

Although optimal, not true for a lot of unknowns, or players in general. Also, folding here is absolutely terrible. I would actually disregard venice10's entire post. Sorry.

why would he lead the pot there???? I would say to take the pot right there, looks to me like a pp your ahead of or a flush draw......

Why would he donk into the pfr with a flushdraw??

Yeah doesn't seem too likely. But to answer your question...

Could be its a good one. You're behind AK I think.

Could be trying to get 3 way-action.

Makes more sense with trips or a set ya. I factoring 99, TT, JJ in as a fair bit of range too, but other responses have me wondering.

I agree. However, even the most doltish donkey knows he's got a great hand and wants to start building a pot, not chase everyone out on the flop.

I'm sure 99, TT, and JJ are in his range, but would he bet out so strong when the pf aggressor hasn't played yet?

Clearly, if you believe you're ahead, you need to raise a sufficient enough raise to chase everyone out. The Villain has the leverage, because he can just fold. You are risking a large portion of your stack to find out. There are better opportunities in my mind.

A4s seems possible, if UTG thinks no one will continue w/o an 8. and figures hero for a missed AK.

Seems like a great spot for a semi-bluff with suited connecting spades to me. I would say that his line of play is something which might be done with KQs for example.

FWIW, if UTG had 44 and the flop checked through and he posted the hand on these boards he would be mocked mercilessly.

Raise to $24 and get it in.

You need to have some reads here to do this. If I know that the bettor is aggro, then I will def bump to 3x their bet. If this is a nit, I will call one time and re-eval the turn with the skew towards folding if bet into again.

I wasn't saying check. Just make more of a value bet than the pot. Half the pot would be a good way to start and pray for the flush draw to hit.

bla bla bla OP No reads