Im confused. You c/r flop, c/shove turn? or does c.r mean something totally different?

I think he just meant he called the flop raise after his donk, then check/shoved the turn.

i would predominately go for a c/r here. board is not that wet, against a tight player I want his probable cb, plus yeah we would mostly be c/ring draws here.

there are some nasty turn cards but i don't see what that has to do with a b vs c/r disscusion.

Sorry...this has been bugging me for ages...

Do villains at 50NL habitually c/r draws? I don't think so...if anything, c/r a draw is a slightly more advanced play that requires the player understand concepts like the cbet, FE and maybe even pot equity (if we are shoved on). Most villains don't have all that going on.

So logically, I don't think this villain sees a flop c/r and thinks "he has a draw and he is trying to snap off my cbet and probably get me to fold knowing that he has 30%+ equity if I call or push". I just don't think this is his thought process - he's much more likely to see it as TP+.

Also, thinking in terms of ranges on the flop, a c/r folds everything except premiums and maybe TP (which is tiny in his range). A donk gets called by loads and loads of whiffed overs from this guy (he'll call with A6+ often) , loads of non-premium pp's, worse sets, and it will get raised by premiums. In inviting this action we really are setting villain up to make horrible mistakes on the turn and river.

Snapping off a piddling cb seems unimportant in the context of what we could win in this hand.

Fwiw I don't play 50nl and never have, so it's possible I don't know what I'm talking about, but it seems to me villain is likely to give a c/r less credit than a b/3b. So be it if he puts me on a draw or air or whatever. The main problem with donking the flop is he'll rarely raise our donk (imo) and c/r will help building the pot which is what we'd like. Whatever he might put us on I think villain will have a hard time folding an OP, combo draw (pair+oesd, pair+gs, pair+gs) or even Tx on this board.


I don't think getting a c-bet is unimportant. If we bet the flop and he calls with AQ or whatever he'll probably fold the turn to our bet anyway so we gain about the same as if we would have c/r the flop (and I'm also not positive he'll call our flop donk with overs/crap as often as you seem to think). I'm not sure what the "horrible mistakes" on the turn/river you're talking about, if it's spiking a TP and then going bananas I agree that's an advantage, but as said I'm not sure he'll even call the flop with AQ and I doubt go crazy with TP.

To me it seems like the biggest diff between betting and check/raising is that when villain has a good hand, a check/raise will do a better job building a pot. And a c/r fits my game plan better as it's how I would play most of my good hands/draws and how I would occassionally take a stab with air.

I agree with all of this, excellent post.

Check raising assumes that villain will bet this flop, which he wont do with most of his holdings - why would he bet such a wet flop with any type of hand which wants a showdown? Checking gives him the perfect chance to check his entire range behind, except for the hands which are strong enough to stack off with on this board which were going to raise/call anyway. Id rather bet the flop and be the one putting the pressure on my opponent than check and give him all the power to decide how the hand plays out.

Whatever, it doesn't really matter I guess but I think that checking this flop is terrible

This is wrong btw, can you explain this? Why would he not 3bet a hand which he would call/shove over a checkraise with?

ama,

Ok, what this comes down to is how he will react with diefferent holding vs our two options. I've in several posts explained it detail how *I* think he'll react, but lets do it again:

1) Villain has flopped a really big hand (set, 2-pair, unlikely straight etc)
Both out options will likely end up with the same result, all-in on the flop or turn. It will be easy to build a pot and he's not folding. It doesn't really matter how we play

2) Villain has flopped a strong hand (OP, Tx, pair+straight draw)
Check/raise: I can't see why you don't think he'll try to bet for value/protection with his made hands or try to take the pot down with a draw (why would he even suspect his QQ or whatever isn't ahead?). Now he *might* check the flop with 98s, but given villain's low pfr these hands aren't likely to begin with.
Donking: I think this player is likely to just call these hands on the flop when getting donked into. They're are strong, yet I a somewhat passive villain like this will liekly call and see the turn, esp being deep.

3) Villain has missed the flop (overs and random crap)
Check/raise: Villain just makes his c-bet and fold when we check/raise. We extract one c-bet. Tbh, how often will villain check behind when he has missed the flop hu? I think he's likely to just try to take the pot down.
Donking: Villain may or maynot call with overs (I'd estimate there's a good chance he's just folding). I don't think this is the type of villain that we should try to induce a bluffraise from, won't happen often imo. IF villain calls the flop with his crappy holdings, he's likely to just fold to further aggression ui. With overs he'll improve a bit more than 10% on the turn and those 10% we will win a bit more on turn/river, but those times does not make up for the times check/raising will build a big pot deep vs the stronger part of his range.


So in 1), the results will be about the same. We get it in and hope our hand holds up. In 2), check/raising will build the pot and donking will most often just get called. In 3) we're getting a c-bet if we c/r and if we bet he'll sometimes he'll call with his junk.

To me it seems like 2) is what makes this a c/r, because the difference in value in 1) and 3) is very small.


I assume you mean raise instead of 3bet? I think it's a wild assumption to believe that villain is glad to raise and stack of with OP/Tx when we donk almost 200bb deep. I do not at all feel it's weird he'll call these hands vs a check/raise though. It's not like villain will just make a decision on the flop on whether or not to stack and then follow. A rather passive villain will be more inclined to just call this deep, but most will have a hard time folding OPs vs a check/raise.


Now if villain had been more aggro I would like betting out better, because his raising range will be much wider. I'm afraid most villain (esp being deep) will just bet for value/protection when checked to, but play more cautiously deep when donked into. So against most players I just check/raise. With history of him raising donks or with history of me donking draws/air I like betting.

I'd usually 3-bet this PF. As played I definitely lead that flop. The pot is $4 and we need to get almost $100 more in there. Even pretty passive villains tend to raise their overpairs when donked into. The deep stacks also makes the times we stack him more of a priority and snapping off c-bets less important. There's a decent amount of cards that can come to slow down the action, and donking tends to build a big pot much quicker. As for the results, I doubt that you could've gotten more out of the hand. He probably had air or something close to it.

Nick Royale for President.

the whole point of 3betting pre is that people donk off easier in raised pots. if they do hit any part of the board their more likely to call a lead out to see if you fire again and to check you dont just have ak missed.

also its pretty nitty to not raise 10's OOP in a HU pot.

Back to PF, if we 3 bet to around $4, and he called, we can take him off AA/KK and maybe even think we are ahead as overpair. If he min-raises us back to say $10-$12, we'd definitely have implied odds to call and:
1. He's shown us he probably has AA/KK/QQ now.
2. We still have well over 8 to 1 to call
3. Now if a T does appear, and the board is dry (at least assuming AA/KK/QQ), he will feel fairly comfortable stacking us, as he's probably assumed we are strong but not as strong as his AA/KK now. Even if he doesn't think much about ranges, he has to say we don't have AA/KK here.

So we only win $1 when he folds to our 3 bet, it risks an extra $3 when he calls and we miss badly (like A K x flop, any point cbetting?), $3 if he just 4 bet shoves (unlikely), and $9 more if we call his 4 bet and miss (can't go any further really). But we double up when we hit far more often, so almost $100 profit.

As played fooling a passive donk into stacking off can be hard work, and I certainly haven't mastered it. I lead a lot here, but it works very seldomly, but then neither does a check/raise.