Commerce casino, I have 1800 in front of me but both villains have about 700. Just moved to the table an orbit ago, no reads other than CO seems drunk and a bit tilty and bad and MP limps every hand and gives up easily on flops or c/c all the way down.

folded to MP who limps, I raise to 50 in hijack with AsTc, CO calls, folded to MP who calls.

flop (145 after rake) Qs Th 7s

MP checks, I bet 110, CO thinks a bit then calls, MP folds

turn (365) 9s

Hero ???

Effective stacks of 540 behind. Is this a spot where stacks are short enough and villains are probably loose passive enough that perhaps just c/fing flop is best instead of bet/folding? The reason I opted to bet was because both are passive enough to not be shoving flush draws.

And as played, considering turn card smacks villain's range and he only has 540 behind, is check/folding our best option or bet/calling? My worry is that I'm not exactly sure he'd fold KQ to a turn bet...

given your read, highly doubt he's folding top pair to a turn bet, even without a spade. and there aren't too many worse hands calling a turn bet (KT/JT with a spade, possibly 89 w/ a spade), so i don't see much value in a bet.

i hate it when people say they're going to check and make a decision (based on tells/betsizing) but against bad players and in a live environment that kind of thinking has much more merit, so that's what i'd go ahead and do.

I think bet calling is the best option here. He could definitely have hit his flush, but i think a fair amount of time you still have the best hand here. Do you think he would've shoved if he had hit the Q on flop?

If you check and he bets, he is going to force you off what might be the best hand (unlikely), but I think you just get in an even tougher spot here when you check and decide what to do. I think we bet here and put our opponent to the test. If he has the flush, so be it and we are praying for a spade when he shoves. We are folding out weaker 10s here but I think we can live with that as sometimes we are also folding out Q's. My main point is that I think we get him to fold out better sometimes, and we have decent enough equity against any hand that he has to make b/c the best option.

So basically, every draw hit with that one card . Also, with the possible 1 pair type hands like KQ/QJ/JT etc, the card also improved his equity to continue. And considering he's a fish, I don't see this idiot folding to a turn, esp since he's a passive calling station, likely to pay off worse hands. It sucks but I don't think b/c is really that profitable vs this character. You have a better chance at trying to take a free card getting to showdown.

this seems good to me

I am definitely checking and more often than not folding vs this guy.

I am still in this camp as of right now.

I'd appreciate any opinions on this matter:

So you want to turn your hand into a bluff, bloat the pot, and call of the rest of your stack when you're behind b/c the pot has become so big that you now have odds to call?

Doesn't seem like a very good plan to me b/c when ever you are called or raised, you are drawing very slim. Sure you may fold him off some Qx hands but given that

a) most Qx hand he calls with made 2 pair or picked up outs to a strait or flush draw, I don't know how often he's folding them

b) when he calls the flop, that turn card made every one of his draws so there are very few hands in his range that you are behind you and even fewer that will call unprofitably turning your turn bet into a bluff

c) you have best hand here almost never and a weak draw at best

d) he's loose passive and not likely to make plays

putting another 540 into the pot w/the worst of it doesn't make much sense.

Why not just check and decide? The decision isn't really that tough at all b/c you are rarely if ever folding the best hand when you check and he bombs. Fold if he makes a big bet, call if you have the pot odds. Simple as that

nut flush draw among other possible draws to be precise

You are right. I like your analysis and I think it's spot on. Its unlikely he is going to bet enough to let us draw at the flush unless hes a complete donk (which is possible), so it's either a b/c or c/f almost every time.

I think this is a decent flop to check it back with middle pair. Not necessarily c/f, but maybe check and see what opponent decides to do. Only card you would really be scared to see on turn is a J or a K. This is a strategy I often take when flopping a high middle pair, For example when I hold KQ on an A Q 5 board. The reasoning is simple. Not many cards are going to scare you on the turn. Even if you check and villain bets, you can still call and see the turn and proceed from there. If villain is THAT passive, you can be sure you hand is not best.

I meant weak b/c you could be drawing to as few as 7 outs if he's already flushed. An A may or may not be good as he could have a strait or flush already and the same thinking goes for another T

bet less on the flop with these stack sizes.

It's not as if I can mold the potsize so that we can withstand three streets anyways when this shallow and three ways, so I don't really see the purpose of betting less. It's either bet or don't bet, imo.

Can some other people please comment on my flop speculation:

Bump:

The problem with cf'ing the flop is that you've got too much equity and the best hand often enough to make con betting correct. If you check button will likely bet w/any Q, any draw, worse Tx's, and other bs. If MP calls I think you can fold but if MP folds you're putting yourself in a very tough spot. Do you call the flop and try to dodge a ton of cards on the turn and river which may or may not help your opponent?

Do you c/r AI and hope he's on a draw or will fold a Q? Against a tighter player I think this play has merit b/c he might fold a hand like QJ on the flop but this is the type of guy who likes to stack off weak and will call you w/any Qx hand IMO.

I'd much rather bet here and force others to define their range against me b/c there's a very good chance you take it down on the flop or get called by MP and it goes check check on the turn and river and your hand is good. W/mp being so loose and passive there also an excellent chance that he calls the flop and checks through the turn and river b/c he doesn't want to commit his stack

Yeah, but these players are hardly ever betting with Tx or a draw when checked to, and basically never with air.

If you are that sure that you will never get bluffed by co then you can prolly c/f but I don't know any players that are that strait foward. Even the most passive players will take opportunity to bluff when its handed to them on a silver platter

def check, probably folding depending on his betsize

Citizen- You just have to understand that sometimes you get into a spot where your hand is just too strong to muck right away but too weak to plow through. This is one of those spots. Sometimes you just have to peel one off and hope to either improve to what is most likely the best hand (and be able to gt paid on it which you would vs these guys), or hope they check around you allowing you to see another card and repeat the process...

An annoying spot for sure but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. A c/c flop line make look rather spewy but against the type of opponents you are playing it may be just best if you view this hand from an implied odds point of view. Pretend you had 98 instead. My point may become clearer...

i agree with betting smaller on the flop as well given stack size
$85-90 would be better imo

if your read is that they are that passive then def check turn and hope for a free river

The flop is a great spot to continuation bet and see where your at.. most fish will call with draws and sometimes Qrag. They will most likely bet out or check raise with Q rag. There is no value in betting the turn so check and fold to a river bet unless you hit a spade.. even if you hit a A or 10 its most likely no good..
results?