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4BP Battle COvsBU 4BP Battle COvsBU

12-27-2022 , 01:36 PM
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem 1(BB)
HERO ($110) [VPIP: 28.7% | PFR: 24.4% | AGG: 37.6% | Flop Agg: 44.3% | Turn Agg: 33.8% | River Agg: 36.1% | 3-Bet: 11.8% | Fold to 3-Bet: 62.2% | 4-Bet: 14% | Hands: 129435]
SB ($49.47) [VPIP: 53.3% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 28% | Hands: 32]
BB ($137.55) [VPIP: 27% | PFR: 24.3% | AGG: 30% | Hands: 38]
UTG ($198.19) [VPIP: 31.6% | PFR: 21.1% | AGG: 33.3% | Hands: 19]
HJ ($100) [VPIP: 16.7% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 33.3% | Hands: 30]
CO ($101.25) [VPIP: 23.7% | PFR: 21.1% | AGG: 42.9% | Flop Agg: 60% | Turn Agg: 33.3% | River Agg: 66.7% | 3-Bet: 20% | 4-Bet: 66.7% | Fold to 4-Bet: 0% | Hands: 39]

Dealt to Hero: J A

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Raises To $2.30, HERO Raises To $7.60, SB Folds, BB Folds, CO Raises To $21, HERO Calls $13.40

Hero SPR on Flop: [1.84 effective]
Flop ($43.50): 9 3 6
CO Bets $10.33 (Rem. Stack: $69.92), HERO Calls $10.33 (Rem. Stack: $78.67)

Turn ($64.16): 9 3 6 A
CO Bets $15.24 (Rem. Stack: $54.68), HERO Calls $15.24 (Rem. Stack: $63.43)

River ($94.64): 9 3 6 A K
CO Bets $54.68 (allin), HERO ?
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 02:19 PM
I don't think you can fold, but, having the Jc is a card you want V to have.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 03:19 PM
I like a fold.

First, facing an aggressive line like B-B-B in 4bet pots is underbluffed.

Second, they'd need to be turning 9x and underpairs into bluffs which feels optimistic.

Worse Ax/Kx that we dominate I would presume would largely be checking this river and not value betting this thin.

You play a bit higher than me so maybe they do turn QJ/QT/JT and 9x into bluffs but I still like a fold. This is a good bluff if they did end up bluffing.

Last edited by madchens123; 12-27-2022 at 03:43 PM.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 05:02 PM
fold pre to the 4bet - fold flop!!!!

As played snapcall river…
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madchens123
You play a bit higher than me so maybe they do turn QJ/QT/JT and 9x into bluffs but I still like a fold.
Are these even hands that 4b bluff pre, they seem to play better as flats? I fold river, his bluffs are going to be like Kxs and maybe TT here.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thr33bet
Are these even hands that 4b bluff pre, they seem to play better as flats? I fold river, his bluffs are going to be like Kxs and maybe TT here.
Low frequency in CO vs BTN so if we take those out it makes me lean even more to fold.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 05:38 PM
I'd fold river, AK-x boards in 4bps have got to be the most underbluffed. Occasionally a worse Ax might play this way because they don't know what to do and don't want to check-call, but not enough of a factor I think.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 05:56 PM
Have you reason to believe hes 4betting light? Ive run into some light 4bets in the pool from certain villains, probably you lol, but for the most part its been JJ+, AQs, AK, so i dont think this is a good call preflop unless we think hes 4bet light a lot. My experience w the 100nl pool so far has been the same as 50nl, they call too many 3bets pre and dont 4bet enough.

As played i dont think hes bluffing much, but i dont see how we can fold on the river with top pair in a 4bp. So i sigh call unhappily and then wonder why did i get into this hand in the first place.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 06:03 PM
Not sure what else we can do but call, villain can be turning all 12 combos of KQ into bluffs4BP Battle COvsBU

However, villain's preflop sizing is on the larger side so that does narrow their range some
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchise804
*12 combos of KQ
Maybe? A lot of players dont even 4b that. And would he bet bet bet w those combos? Doubtful
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 06:24 PM
How often do you have the nuts here? That's always fun to make their head spin lol.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendoo
fold pre to the 4bet - fold flop!!!!

As played snapcall river…
It's actually pretty easy to prove that preflop is a call. Solver 4bets 22% (87 combos) but population 4bets 16% (63 combos).

You can just use UTG4betting range which is 65 combos and UTG still is a call. Granted the composition may be slightly different but UTG will be stronger and AJs is a call and isn't that close.

4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-27-2022 , 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsyaboi
I'd fold river, AK-x boards in 4bps have got to be the most underbluffed. Occasionally a worse Ax might play this way because they don't know what to do and don't want to check-call, but not enough of a factor I think.
Big difference between Ace high flops and low boards with Ax OTT/OTR imo.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-28-2022 , 04:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
It's actually pretty easy to prove that preflop is a call. Solver 4bets 22% (87 combos) but population 4bets 16% (63 combos).
Not sure about this. That's gto v gto and we're trying to exploit an imbalance.

If we're getting ~44% pot odds, and our combo only has ~32% equity against a tight 63 combo 4b range (which works out to something like AQo, TT+). Even though we have position and potentially a skill edge/somewhat over-realise across infinite runouts, the question is: is that enough? AJs is usually a bluffcatcher on any A or J high board, and we're playing an overly tight range.

If they are under 4betting as the data suggests then our marginal hands are not indifferent at all. i.e. we're not being exploited (yet), we should overfold rather than overcall.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-28-2022 , 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
It's actually pretty easy to prove that preflop is a call. Solver 4bets 22% (87 combos) but population 4bets 16% (63 combos).

You can just use UTG4betting range which is 65 combos and UTG still is a call. Granted the composition may be slightly different but UTG will be stronger and AJs is a call and isn't that close.

Not folding pre ... Maybe on ACR... but not on ignition.

I can not wrap my head around why we are OTR folding AcJc but calling with all other combos. Can you please help me with this?
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-28-2022 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceres
Not sure about this. That's gto v gto and we're trying to exploit an imbalance.

If we're getting ~44% pot odds, and our combo only has ~32% equity against a tight 63 combo 4b range (which works out to something like AQo, TT+). Even though we have position and potentially a skill edge/somewhat over-realise across infinite runouts, the question is: is that enough? AJs is usually a bluffcatcher on any A or J high board, and we're playing an overly tight range.

If they are under 4betting as the data suggests then our marginal hands are not indifferent at all. i.e. we're not being exploited (yet), we should overfold rather than overcall.
In real life it's not that clean though. You have to put low-mid frequency hands like 88/99/KQo/AJo to make it a more realistic sim.

It's also not indifferent. A .42 edge preflop is a pretty big deal. The mistake is similar to folding AJo OTB when it's folded to you.

Which I think everyone can agree is a punt.

These 4bet spots don't happen as often so it's easy not to correlate the EV to that but that's how bad folding AJs is here.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-28-2022 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsimplesimon
Not folding pre ... Maybe on ACR... but not on ignition.

I can not wrap my head around why we are OTR folding AcJc but calling with all other combos. Can you please help me with this?
The flop isn't ranged so his bluffing range should have more clubs in it, I'm assuming the Jc blocks some of the CO's bluffs so that makes it a fold.

The sim isn't accurate though so it doesn't matter. Population is ranging 1/4 (solver isn't) and population 4bets less preflop.

My range is different too, I'm not calling 0 EV hands like K9s/QTs.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-28-2022 , 02:25 PM
On ACR, you can defend AJs against some Vs in these positions, not against others.

DDP, change the flop to T high and I think a sim will range bet making AJcc a better float. Change the 9c to Tc for Tc6h3h.
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-29-2022 , 03:48 PM
Interested to know results...
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-29-2022 , 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YanasaurBBQ
Interested to know results...
Results (I changed the river to make it more interesting)

Spoiler:
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem 1(BB)
HERO ($110) [VPIP: 28.7% | PFR: 24.4% | AGG: 37.6% | Flop Agg: 44.3% | Turn Agg: 33.8% | River Agg: 36.1% | 3-Bet: 11.8% | Fold to 3-Bet: 62.3% | 4-Bet: 14% | Hands: 130090]
SB ($49.47) [VPIP: 53.3% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 28% | Hands: 32]
BB ($137.55) [VPIP: 27% | PFR: 24.3% | AGG: 30% | Hands: 38]
UTG ($198.19) [VPIP: 31.6% | PFR: 21.1% | AGG: 33.3% | Hands: 19]
HJ ($100) [VPIP: 16.7% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 33.3% | Hands: 30]
CO ($101.25) [VPIP: 23.7% | PFR: 21.1% | AGG: 42.9% | Flop Agg: 60% | Turn Agg: 33.3% | River Agg: 66.7% | 3-Bet: 20% | 4-Bet: 66.7% | Fold to 4-Bet: 0% | Hands: 39]

Dealt to Hero: J A

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Raises To $2.30, HERO Raises To $7.60, SB Folds, BB Folds, CO Raises To $21, HERO Calls $13.40

Hero SPR on Flop: [1.84 effective]
Flop ($43.50): 9 3 6
CO Bets $10.33 (Rem. Stack: $69.92), HERO Calls $10.33 (Rem. Stack: $78.67)

Turn ($64.16): 9 3 6 A
CO Bets $15.24 (Rem. Stack: $54.68), HERO Calls $15.24 (Rem. Stack: $63.43)

River ($94.64): 9 3 6 A J
CO Bets $54.68 (allin), HERO Calls $54.68 (Rem. Stack: $8.75)

Spoiler:

CO shows: 8 8

HERO wins: $200
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-29-2022 , 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
Results (I changed the river to make it more interesting)

Spoiler:
Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem 1(BB)
HERO ($110) [VPIP: 28.7% | PFR: 24.4% | AGG: 37.6% | Flop Agg: 44.3% | Turn Agg: 33.8% | River Agg: 36.1% | 3-Bet: 11.8% | Fold to 3-Bet: 62.3% | 4-Bet: 14% | Hands: 130090]
SB ($49.47) [VPIP: 53.3% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 28% | Hands: 32]
BB ($137.55) [VPIP: 27% | PFR: 24.3% | AGG: 30% | Hands: 38]
UTG ($198.19) [VPIP: 31.6% | PFR: 21.1% | AGG: 33.3% | Hands: 19]
HJ ($100) [VPIP: 16.7% | PFR: 16.7% | AGG: 33.3% | Hands: 30]
CO ($101.25) [VPIP: 23.7% | PFR: 21.1% | AGG: 42.9% | Flop Agg: 60% | Turn Agg: 33.3% | River Agg: 66.7% | 3-Bet: 20% | 4-Bet: 66.7% | Fold to 4-Bet: 0% | Hands: 39]

Dealt to Hero: J A

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Raises To $2.30, HERO Raises To $7.60, SB Folds, BB Folds, CO Raises To $21, HERO Calls $13.40

Hero SPR on Flop: [1.84 effective]
Flop ($43.50): 9 3 6
CO Bets $10.33 (Rem. Stack: $69.92), HERO Calls $10.33 (Rem. Stack: $78.67)

Turn ($64.16): 9 3 6 A
CO Bets $15.24 (Rem. Stack: $54.68), HERO Calls $15.24 (Rem. Stack: $63.43)

River ($94.64): 9 3 6 A J
CO Bets $54.68 (allin), HERO Calls $54.68 (Rem. Stack: $8.75)

Spoiler:

CO shows: 8 8

HERO wins: $200
Lol i can understand why you did that. Nice job though, you made it into a hand worth talking about. I mean, this is a pretty epic punt by villain starting w 4betting 88 preflop. Answer honestly if the river really was a king would you have found the fold button?
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote
12-29-2022 , 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YanasaurBBQ
Lol i can understand why you did that. Nice job though, you made it into a hand worth talking about. I mean, this is a pretty epic punt by villain starting w 4betting 88 preflop. Answer honestly if the river really was a king would you have found the fold button?
You can 4bet 88 pf it's mixed. No I still call river but not sure how good it is. It's probably better on iggy than other sites though
4BP Battle COvsBU Quote

      
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