2nlz: AK makes TPTK on turn, faces overbet shove on river by pf 3-bettor - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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2nlz: AK makes TPTK on turn, faces overbet shove on river by pf 3-bettor

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09-10-2017 , 11:13 PM

EVmonopolist

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 50

Villain is 21/21/27 (3/11) over 28 hands. No specific reads on Villain.

My main concern in this hand is on the river, but can I 4-bet & get-it-in preflop 140bb effective stack? Because my reasoning for just flatting is people usually tight in shoving when it's deep.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BTN: 115.5 BB
SB: 107.5 BB
BB: 117 BB
UTG: 74 BB
Hero (MP): 393 BB
CO: 139 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 7 BB

Flop: (21.5 BB, 2 players) 7

Hero checks, CO bets 9.5 BB, Hero calls 9.5 BB

Turn: (40.5 BB, 2 players) K

Hero checks, CO bets 20 BB, Hero calls 20 BB

River: (80.5 BB, 2 players) 2

Hero checks, CO bets 99.5 BB and is all-in, Hero

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09-11-2017 , 02:25 AM

AltoZZ

adept

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 796

4bet/AI is the way to go here.
V ain't that deep and we make good profit by 3betting and V folding to it some % of a time.

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09-11-2017 , 05:55 AM

EVmonopolist

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Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by AltoZZ

4bet/AI is the way to go here.
V ain't that deep and we make good profit by 3betting and V folding to it some % of a time.

I see. When do you consider that an effective stack is deep? 200bb?

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09-11-2017 , 06:31 AM

ALongmuir

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Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 1,072

I don't agree with 4b/c in these positions at 2NL vs unk, majority of the time you'll see AA/KK. Calling is fine.

Should be a call in theory, overfolding is definitely fine at 2NL vs unk. Vs range of KK+/JJ/AK/T9s it's a fold, villains typically underbluff this line quite a bit and are bad at barreling with draws and will give up rivers quite a bit at 2NL.

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09-11-2017 , 06:40 AM

EVmonopolist

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Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALongmuir

I don't agree with 4b/c in these positions at 2NL vs unk, majority of the time you'll see AA/KK. Calling is fine.

That's my population read also, that people doesn't usually light 3-bet the UTG/MP opener. Tbh, I'll 4-bet/call jam this hand if it's just 100bb eff because Villain looks aggro with his stats.

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09-11-2017 , 04:03 PM

Bigka79

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Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,175

I'm good with a pre call, if you are floating the flop you pretty much have to raise that turn or fold it, I don't like calling down here, we never really know where we are

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09-11-2017 , 07:13 PM

.isolated

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 21,495

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigka79

I'm good with a pre call, if you are floating the flop you pretty much have to raise that turn or fold it, I don't like calling down here, we never really know where we are

because if we raise "we know where we are"? solid logic.

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09-11-2017 , 07:35 PM

Bigka79

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Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,175

Quote:

Originally Posted by .isolated

because if we raise "we know where we are"? solid logic.

How do we gain any information by check calling?

Idk, honestly I don't float unless I'm planning on doing something in the turn, the call with a K hitting is just weak IMO.

How would you play the turn?

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09-11-2017 , 07:38 PM

.isolated

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 21,495

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigka79

How do we gain any information by check calling?

Did you really just answer my question with a question? Answer my question or just admit that your logic sucks and try (for your sake) to approach the game differently.

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How would you play the turn?

There's a reason no one else advocated raising turn but you.

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09-11-2017 , 07:43 PM

#10

Bigka79

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Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,175

Quote:

Originally Posted by .isolated

Did you really just answer my question with a question? Answer my question or just admit that your logic sucks and try (for your sake) to approach the game differently.

There's a reason no one else advocated raising turn but you.

Your question included a reword of what I said, and putting it I quotes... I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and trying to have a conversation but it seems we are here for different reasons...Thanks for contributing, Man!

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09-11-2017 , 07:52 PM

#11

.isolated

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My "rewording" was only putting your quote in the past tense. I didn't take it out of context and I asked you a question but you're still avoiding my question under the guise of needing a safe space. You should look into why that defies any kind of poker logic. You're welcome.

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09-12-2017 , 12:28 AM

#12

whitemares

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,786

Everything before the river looks fine. Don't really want to be stacking off AKo MP vs unknown CO for ~140bb. As far as the river, like ALongmuir said, you can (and probably should) overfold in spots like this at 2nl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigka79

Idk, honestly I don't float unless I'm planning on doing something in the turn, the call with a K hitting is just weak IMO.

He might be coming off a little rough, but he's totally right. This is terrible logic. Just because one option "seems weak" when compared to another doesn't mean that it's going to give less EV. The goal of this game is to maximize EV, not prioritize aggressive action without taking all possible factors into consideration.

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09-12-2017 , 05:58 PM

#13

Bigka79

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Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,175

I mean I get it, raising is incorrect in hindsight. I do believe the turn card isn't a bad one to turn On the aggression. Frankly I am most likely to fold the flop, hell, I'm probably wrong doing that but that would have been my line.

When Villians stats mention (3/11) is this their 3b percentage of 11. I will admit it's been 5 years since I've played regularly and am a bit of a newb here. Hell do you guys call it newbs or does everyone say n00b these days.

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09-12-2017 , 08:57 PM

#14

whitemares

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 5,786

The thing about raising in a spot like this is that you can only expect to get called by better hands (without reads) and fold all of villain's bluffs. Raising would narrow villain's range to the point that we could probably figure it out almost perfectly, but that doesn't really do anything in terms of our goal of
maximizing EV.

Villain's 3bet is 27%. The 3/11 means villain 3bet 3 out of 11 times he was able to 3bet. Pretty useless with so few hands though.

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