No Limit Hold'em $0.01/$0.02
Winning Poker Network
6 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com: Poker HUD for Mac and Windows

Stacks:
BTN - BTN ($1.00)
SB - SB ($1.48)
BB - BB ($1.49)
MP - MP ($1.20)
CO - Hero ($2.07)
BB - BB ($1.00)

Preflop: ($0.06, 6 players) Hero is CO with K Q
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.10, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.10, SB calls $0.09, 1 fold

Flop: K 9 3 ($0.40, 3 players)
SB bets $0.17, Hero calls $0.17, 1 fold

Turn: 3 ($0.74, 2 players)
SB bets $0.33, Hero raises to $1.80 (all-in), SB calls $0.88 (all-in), Uncalled bet of $0.59 returned to Hero

River: T ($3.16, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Total Pot: $3.16
SB shows K A (with Two pairs. Ks and 3s (kicker A))
Hero shows K Q (with Two pairs. Ks and 3s)

SB wins $2.96 with Two pairs. Ks and 3s (kicker A)


Table is a short table on ACR which means the max buy-in is 50BB.

Just curious about the line here wondering if I overplayed KQo here. When he leads flop I'm putting him on a hand with the Ac, that most likely has a pair here. Ultimately some % of the time hes gunna have AK here but I thought he would be more likely to raise that pre so I put a little less weight there. Is it too ambitious to think that he could also be leading here with KJ/KT with the club? Maybe 2p specifically K9 looking to protect which obviously has us beat atm? My thinking on the turn is if this player has Ax with a club here and is attempting to set his own price he's certainly going to call a raise. Is that enough to warrant a raise here? If he bets the river should I be folding? Holding the Qc we block hands that would most likely call a raise pre and have flopped the flush such as QJ QT AQ however smaller flopped flushes are definitely still possible here and they would certainly go for 3 streets of value. Do we stand to make a more EV play by flatting the turn and folding to a shove/checking back if he checks back. Would there be merit to a thin value bet? If he has A9 with the Ac he would likely call a small bet as would a KJ/KT with a club. We lose to AK/A3 and made flushes but A3 and flopped flushes likely wont be deciding to check river at this point. If he shoves were pretty priced in though we'll probably never be ahead. Does the game type make a shove on the turn more warranted? Let me know what you guys think just trying to look at the hand from all angles.


-Also moving this from the full-ring section accidentally posted this in there.

Hey moving the thread over here to the right section if you wish to continue the discussion.


-My thinking was along the lines of if we call turn and he shoves river we're in a pretty tough spot. If we're going to make that river call then we might as well charge the max for when he has the Ac draw and we eliminate him putting us in a tough spot with either that or potentially a worse king. I'd have to think with his stack size his decision on the river will always be all-in or check. Lets say I check-call and fold on the river when I don't hit a Q and he goes all in or when he checks I can either go for thin value/take my showdown value. In this type of situation do I stand to make more money by taking a more passive line? Over time by always taking the more passive line I will be much easier to play against. Does this matter as much at such a low stake? Maybe the best approach is to do a bit of both in the long term but as a standard play is the more passive line more likely to be +EV do you think? Also I think I forgot to mention in the OP that this is a short table on ACR. On these tables the max buy in is only 50BB. Playing such a game type does this make it more worthwhile to make the shove on the turn?

5x raise is too big esp playing 50bbs...

Post seems fine

Thanks for the input. There was someone that posted 1.5BB to my direct left does that change the raise size pre at all for you? If we're going smaller are we thinking more a 4x/3.5x raise? With such a loose villain I was looking to charge him the maximum to play a hand with me. However maybe by doing so we narrow down his range to the point where his AK is going to become more likely to be a call rather than a raise. Maybe he mostly calls when the player on the button calls but would be more likely to raise if there wasn't another caller. Tough to say with only ~40 hands played.

3x is fairly standard or even less if you're playing a lot of hands.

Didn't know someone posted, 5x is ok if that's the case.

The reason to raise smaller preflop is so you can play / steal more pots risking less bb's to do so.

If someone did post like you said then I think you played the hand fine. BB is going to have worse hands far more often than he has hands like AK so your line is going to be profitable. ( v can have single club, gutshot, worse kx etc )

My relatively standard open size is 2.5x in all positions except UTG which is 3x. I don't really change my sizing according to my hand strength unless I have a mega whale at the table. I've found on some tables even 2x is enough to steal so on those tables I'll use 2x as my opening size from all positions except 3x UTG. Totally on board with using the smaller size to play/steal more hands post flop glad we're in agreement. Do you think that V is leading here with a gutshot on the flop? I actually don't think there should be many gutshots in his leading range here if any at all. JT I guess could be possible but the only JT combo he should have where he's leading has already flopped the flush. Unless hes just taking the J of clubs and using it as a bluff to get me off of a king? I'm not sure how many people who are as loose as him will take that line as opposed to check calling but who knows.

It's 2NL don't over think it, they'll have all sorts of crap

This is a valid point lol. I'm trying to do a $100 bankroll challenge from free rolls and 2NL starting with $0. I'm by no means a crusher but I like to think about the game from as many angles as possible. Sometimes this causes me to overthink spots like this at the lower stakes.

with no reads and him Op donking into 2 players flop and turn it's closer to a fold then it is to a raise, remember, he called your big raise OP, he doesn't have many offsuited hands, even if he is leading all of the Acx hands that are only few combos, he has quite a few more hands that has you beat, so even if he has some Acx combos, I don't think that we are good often enough.
Also, most people don't lead 2 streets as bluff/semi-bluff, so going with population read, I'm never raising turn and folding river unimproved.

Does the flat call on the button impact him maybe calling with a weaker range? He is in the small blind and will only be calling 4BB to win ~15BB. I'm with you though that the average population wont be leading 2 streets as a bluff all that often especially on a monotone board so I could definitely see the case for folding.

well, he should not be calling wider, since he still has to put quite a lot, he has one player behind that can SQZ, and postflop he will be OP vs 2 players, but I think that hes range is going to have mostly mid PP (55-TT), solid SC (JQs, TQs Axs), AQo, maybe AJo, would not expect to see AK that often and if you construct a leading range from this hands, you will see that turn is closer to fold. Also, remember, if you look at your range, it's not like this is top of your range since you defend flop lead in MW pot

Think this is off the mark. SB is a fish who can pretty much be spazzing with any two cards. Raising turn is isn't great vs said spazz range, but its certainly better than folding TPGK with the 2nd nut FD. Would just call down and give V a chance to hang himself.

If we plan to just call down do we not stand to make more money by jamming to get him to call with Acx? Or will that be too narrow of a range to justify the jam? I'd imagine in this specific spot its got to be pretty close either way if we plan to call down the whole way.

I think I could justify a fold against a different player on the turn but against almost a 40% VPIP I feel less inclined to make the fold here. My real concern is how worthwhile it is targeting specific hands that have the Ac or the rare occasion he has like KJo with the Jc. I definitely think this player does not take into account his position when calling. I think he could be calling here with any 2 suited cards/connected cards as bad as 45/56. However I don't think he's ever leading flop with a complete air-ball. We're getting pretty decent odds only needing to call 33 cents to make 1.20. But maybe I'm getting too sticky with TPGK here.

I didn't saw that you wrot he was 40%VPIP fish anywhere, that changes things a bit, but I'm still not raising and folding to a river shove

Oh wow it didn't copy over from the original thread. Vil is a 39/8 however that's only over 40 hands so it's a smaller sample size for sure. I can get behind a call on the trun and a fold to a river shove.

For anyone who is wondering villain is a 39/8 over ~40 hands (super small sample size)

Lets be real here we should never fold with the Qc, there are plenty of weaker pair + club and TP without a club we can fold. You're gonna get spanked if you fold this. Wouldn't raise turn though.

Also you have to risk it to get the biscuit.

All about the biscuit bro! Are we not raising the turn because we plan to check back on the river? Do we not ship the turn because he has 0 fold equity?

keeps villain's bluffs in and there's basically no bad rivers for us except the 3 aces

Okay yeah I can see your reasoning on that but i just don't know how confident I am that he'd be bluffing with complete air here. I think the worst hand he ever has here is the naked Ac and I'm not sure he is the player to be able to run a 3 street bluff.

That's not how you think about poker. Like you say "you don't know" "you think" "you're not sure". So instead of trying to mindread, focuss on playing a good strategy yourself rather than a bad one (fold too much) to counter villain's hypothetical bad one (bluff to little)

I'm with you on that but should we not take into account player type? Villain is a complete fish who has not show much aggression. A passivefish is going to be far less likely to just start blasting off I would think. I could see them check calling all the way down with a draw but rarely do we actually expect to see a passive fish lead 3 streets without some piece of the board? I don't think folding was ever really an option but we can still make exploitative decisions based on what we've seen from the general population with his stats. In my mind it was either call down or get it in on the turn.

Sure you can make slight adjustments based on info available but you should not go overbroad because if your reads are wrong it's a disaster. Folding that hand would be ridiculously exploitable, you can't do that unless your reads are rock solid which is pretty much never the case. Keep in mind fishes ranges are pretty wide and which means they don't need to be very aggro in order to overbluff.

That's a fair point. Are you just never folding this hand regardless because villain can be so wide?