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25NL, who shoves here (flop)? 25NL, who shoves here (flop)?

01-12-2010 , 11:57 PM
Kind of an icky spot here. Villain is 31/9, and fishy--but seems a bit on the passive side so far. So I'm wondering who shoves here and who doesn't. And why. Would like to generate a good discussion.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($32.99)
Button ($63.63)
SB ($9.91)
hero (BB) ($26.88)
UTG ($26.01)
villain (MP) ($22.15)

Preflop:
1 fold, villain calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, hero bets $1.75, villain calls $1.50, Button calls $1.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($5.50) 10, 7, 5 (3 players)
hero bets $3.75, villain raises to $7.50, 1 fold, hero raises to $25.13 (All-In), villain calls $12.90 (All-In)

Turn: ($46.30) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($46.30) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $46.30 | Rake: $2.31
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-12-2010 , 11:58 PM
would be nice to know wat you have
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerin Oil
Kind of an icky spot here. Villain is 31/9, and fishy--but seems a bit on the passive side so far. So I'm wondering who shoves here and who doesn't. And why. Would like to generate a good discussion.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($32.99)
Button ($63.63)
SB ($9.91)
hero (BB) ($26.88)
UTG ($26.01)
villain (MP) ($22.15)

Preflop:
1 fold, villain calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, hero bets $1.75, villain calls $1.50, Button calls $1.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($5.50) 10, 7, 5 (3 players)
hero bets $3.75, villain raises to $7.50, 1 fold, hero raises to $25.13 (All-In), villain calls $12.90 (All-In)

Turn: ($46.30) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($46.30) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $46.30 | Rake: $2.31
so what is the reason for shoving him given our reads?
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 12:22 AM
Don't try to figure out what fish are thinking because they aren't. Even the solid players rarely think at the micros. Just think about ranges online.

What you have (could have) does cut back on alot of villian possibilities...

Down here villian will show up with top pair+ and any any flush draw.

Given the preflop flop play set or overpair are his most likely hands (Villian thinks "swet! I flopped the nuts!) with any top pair the next most likely wieghted towards J10 and A10 (villain thinks "this other guy has a draw at best") and then big flush draws Qxs and better (villian thinks "Sweet! I am almost have the nuts!"

Hero most likely has KK or QQ

Last edited by gestch01; 01-13-2010 at 12:31 AM.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 12:32 AM
Err, sorry, Hero has KK. (never posted a hand before)
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 12:35 AM
seems fine. if you give him some combo draws+sets in his range you're going to be behind but with what's in the pot already and being OOP shoving is fine.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 03:58 AM
Raise more pre, weak passives will call
Flop is almost always a set, or combo draw in which case you could be flipping.
Being oop sux so im more inclined to fold considering villain is passive.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 12:06 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned the two players yet to act after villain raised...
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 12:55 PM
Folding kk here isn't bad.

Number one rule to beat the micros:

If a passive fish shows aggression, fold, he isn't bluffraising you.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 01:39 PM
What hands have you seen him play so far that went to showdown. Does he just see a lot of flops and fold when he misses? Is he aggressive? Have you seen him check-raise? Seems to me like a good spot to get it in because if he has any aggression whatsoever after the flop because he will then be the type who has called a lot and finally hit top pair. Think about the hand and how the villain has been playing and not just the stats.

You probably posted this because you ran into a set, but that **** happens.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerin Oil
Err, sorry, Hero has KK. (never posted a hand before)
Then I flat the villain's min raise on the flop, I feel it will be hard for your shove to get called here by a worse hand in the absence of history.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onyx
Then I flat the villain's min raise on the flop, I feel it will be hard for your shove to get called here by a worse hand in the absence of history.
don't do this. this is easily the worst option OOP as you should be deciding whether your hand is ahead of his range on the flop and either get it in there or fold there. I don't think either decision will have a huge effect on your winrate though given the size of the pot.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:00 PM
if u wouldnt have posted the hand if u had won then u usually shouldnt post it if u lose
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:31 PM
Does anyone call to see a safe non str8/flush card?

If so what do u do oop 1psb left
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaah
Does anyone call to see a safe non str8/flush card?

If so what do u do oop 1psb left
This guy isn't raising the flop with a flush draw.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:35 PM
I think I'm pretty much always shoving here. It's just so hard to make a set.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:35 PM
I'm shoving this spot... you are ahead of his wide range
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonlal
I think I'm pretty much always shoving here. It's just so hard to make a set.
I don't this he has a set. He probably has some crazy 2 pair. Having said that I would have a hard time folding kings on this board.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 02:47 PM
You should definitely consider the possibility of villain valueraising a worse hand as well. Sometimes you encounter passive fish that still go nuts with anything better than tpgk.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxaon
This guy isn't raising the flop with a flush draw.
yeah prob true.

My default is shoving aswell. Cant find a fold here with KK
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 05:05 PM
i dont really see this being anything other than a ten a set or jj-qq
get it in wp
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote
01-13-2010 , 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainHook
i dont really see this being anything other than a ten a set or jj-qq
get it in wp
I've seen similar stat villains show up with Ts5s etc.. in spots like this 37% is so wide and usually includes any 2 suited. So hands that he raises with can include lots of 2 pair combos plus any T, and sets as well. No pokerstove here but i'm guessing that calling here is -ev. Shoving might be slight+ev and folding is probably the best action given the previous passive play.
25NL, who shoves here (flop)? Quote

      
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