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25NL Turn Shove? 25NL Turn Shove?

08-20-2011 , 03:29 AM
The villain, aka the CO, was 29/27 over 175 hands. At this point I noticed that he tightened up his range a bit once he lost a big pot with a set of 3s against a bigger set. Because of this I felt that my 107 was live. I was not worried about the BTN since over 45 hands he was 64/5.

Merge - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG+1: $27.37
MP: $18.86
MP+1: $51.55
CO: $30.67
BTN: $17.38
Hero (SB): $27.08
BB: $18.85
UTG: $26.37

Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has 7 T

fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $0.85, BTN calls $0.85, Hero calls $0.75, fold

Flop: ($2.80, 3 players) 9 2 T
Hero checks, CO bets $2.80, BTN calls $2.80, Hero raises to $8.75, CO calls $5.95, fold

Turn: ($23.10, 2 players) 4


Hero?


What is the correct play here? I cannot bet without pot committing myself. So, that being said, would checking to induce a bet be the most profitable play or would shoving be better with the off chance of having JJ or QQ folding?


P.S. For those saying fold pre... I was playing a very tight style and I wanted I needed to mix up my play and showdown a non premium hand. Yes, I could have waited until I was in position, but getting with myself getting over 2.75 to 1 I thought my call was justifiable.

Last edited by Shelldonahue; 08-20-2011 at 03:45 AM.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-20-2011 , 03:39 AM
We need info on the villains. Make a bigger raise otf then jam turn imo if you want to play this hand this way. But the best play is to fold or squeeze preflop because your hand is often dominated by too many weird hands especially since you're trying to play oop vs 2 opponents.

So yeah, just fold preflop.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-20-2011 , 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bereziNLX3
We need info on the villains. Make a bigger raise otf then jam turn imo if you want to play this hand this way. But the best play is to fold or squeeze preflop because your hand is often dominated by too many weird hands especially since you're trying to play oop vs 2 opponents.

So yeah, just fold preflop.
I will edit the post with info on villain.

Folding preflop is not an option.

Also, how much more would you have raised on the flop. I felt that it was pretty irrelevant since I was going to shove almost any turn, and any raise will have me almost committed.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-20-2011 , 03:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelldonahue
I will edit the post with info on villain.

Folding preflop is not an option.

Also, how much more would you have raised on the flop. I felt that it was pretty irrelevant since I was going to shove almost any turn, and any raise will have me almost committed.
I'd just make it 9.50ish but its not that big of a deal. It kinda sucks that villain is cbetting full pot because it looks like a villains standard line with a monster hand vs what he is assuming to be fishy players.

If folding preflop is not an option then please squeeze to 3$.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-20-2011 , 03:56 AM
i think calling deepstacked is fine but 100bb or lower ehh.... he just bet full pot into 2 other players on a wet board & it looks pretty much like the top of his range, if he bets pot to fold to a raise on that board its so bad so i like calling otf & folding turn just because our implied odds will go down otr if we hit as our hand is kind of face up(although considering stack sizes he probably still calls)

so yea i dont like raising flop & i dont like the call pre

0.02
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-20-2011 , 04:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelldonahue
I will edit the post with info on villain.

Folding preflop is not an option.


Also, how much more would you have raised on the flop. I felt that it was pretty irrelevant since I was going to shove almost any turn, and any raise will have me almost committed.
Lol. Folding preflop is the ONLY option.

Once you hit the flop with your junk, check-shove it for max fold equity - your hand has pretty strong equity, but not mega strong. You may find that a lot of your perceived outs aren't outs - he can have sets, higher flush draws, higher Tens etc that counterfeit a lot of your outs. What I'm trying to say is that AcTc-AcKc would be far better hands to check-raise smaller with.

We don't really want to be inviting action by making our check-raise smallish because when we brick turns our equity plummets.

As played, ball til you fall - shove the turn and let it roll. Villain should be just stacking his sets on the flop, so when he flats your flop c/r, his range is heavily biased towards flush and straight draws with the occasional curious QQ-AA - the brick on the turn didn't help most of his range, so carry on repping your monster and shove it.

Last edited by NJD77; 08-20-2011 at 04:20 AM.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-20-2011 , 08:41 AM
fold pre. otf once villain pots mw with a big fish in...meh i dont think we have enough FE.
drawing oop is not attractive as well but having a pair to go along with it and with a fish who can draw with worse or pay with worse i guess flatting is the best option.
as played just shove turn villain can have naked draws
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-20-2011 , 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD77
Once you hit the flop with your junk, check-shove it for max fold equity -
I don´t like this at all. You´re never ch/shoving your value-hands here.

I like the betsizing of the ch/r, because we want to have fold equity ott.

As played, shove ott
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-20-2011 , 09:31 PM
Your odds aren't bad. With his range you're about 1.4:1 OTT all-in. You get enough FE from the flop for this hand to be profitable. Shoving turn is the best move.

Board: Th 9c 2c 4d

equity
Hero: 42.970% { Tc7c }
Villain: 57.030% { 99+, 22, AcKc, AcQc, AcJc, AcTc, Ac8c, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac4c, Ac3c, KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, Kc8c, Kc7c, Kc6c, K5s, Kc4c, Kc3c, QcJc, Qc8c, Qc7c, Jc8c, T9s, 8c6c, 6c5c, 5c4c, ATo, KTo, QTo }

Last edited by Grindhouse55; 08-20-2011 at 09:44 PM.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-20-2011 , 11:14 PM
i like 3-betting preflop if i thought co would fold a decent %. prefer some high card strength, but i think its a good spot.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-21-2011 , 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowBright
i like 3-betting preflop if i thought co would fold a decent %. prefer some high card strength, but i think its a good spot.
Yeah if the CO would fold a decent %. Not this guy. Nor the BTN. One guy overly LAG and one calling station while you have a 2-gapper. Maybe if they were regs and nits you're saying.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-21-2011 , 06:35 AM
You say you are not worried about the BTN because he is a whale but you say you have noticed the CO tightening up, well the only reason you should be in the pot at all is because of the fish. I think you made the call for the wrong reasons but it is without a doubt a call pre. I guess you could squeeze but i want to be in every pot with this fish when i have anything remotely playable.

Although i dont think the flop play is th worst i have ever seen its defnatley up there. I mean we call pre to play a hand with the fish and get almost the best flop we can hope for and the CO gets the fish to put money in the pot but then we raise which in all likelyhood gets the result that we got. The CO continues and we lose the fish which is bad because it will be the fish that pays us off most of the times we make our hand.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-21-2011 , 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD77
Lol. Folding preflop is the ONLY option.

Once you hit the flop with your junk, check-shove it for max fold equity - your hand has pretty strong equity, but not mega strong. You may find that a lot of your perceived outs aren't outs - he can have sets, higher flush draws, higher Tens etc that counterfeit a lot of your outs. What I'm trying to say is that AcTc-AcKc would be far better hands to check-raise smaller with.

We don't really want to be inviting action by making our check-raise smallish because when we brick turns our equity plummets.

As played, ball til you fall - shove the turn and let it roll. Villain should be just stacking his sets on the flop, so when he flats your flop c/r, his range is heavily biased towards flush and straight draws with the occasional curious QQ-AA - the brick on the turn didn't help most of his range, so carry on repping your monster and shove it.
His goal is to showdown a non premium hand, so shoving is not an option. The Villain might fold.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-21-2011 , 11:19 AM
lol, wp sir.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-21-2011 , 07:56 PM
MartL's point about playing for the fish is bang on. Especially since you noticed the CO going into a shell after a set-over-set.

Call preflop is not good no matter how you reason it. I'm not keen on drawing to a 10high flush OOP twice, even if one is a fish. Even if you catch a set or straight your aren't going to get that much action from the now tightened up CO and the fish is calling from the button all time with anything and everything (meaning he misses usually).

In my (probably lacking) experience players you notice tighten up after a cooler usually have a mindset of "next time im in a pot im gonna try and win regardless" so marginals start to creep into villains range a bit.

As played, shove the turn and hope...

Last edited by Raymoth; 08-21-2011 at 08:02 PM.
25NL Turn Shove? Quote
08-21-2011 , 08:09 PM
I think I fold T7s here pre. It really is a trash hand, especially oop and without initiative.

Squeezing here is laughable though. If you want to squeeze you need reads that villains fold to your 3bets especially with complete junk like T7s

I would prolly call the flop and checkshove any turn (aside of a paired board)
25NL Turn Shove? Quote

      
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