25nl Straight and FD facing a raise on my cbet - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

Two Plus Two Forums Poker Strategy Online No-Limit Hold’em Cash

25nl Straight and FD facing a raise on my cbet

Post Reply Subscribe

...

04-08-2010 , 11:06 PM

djrion

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 578

What line puts my opponent at the biggest disadvantage?

Call?
4bet?
4bet overshove?
fold?

he seems like a decent nitty reg (if there is such a thing):
17/15/60 over 156 hands

he views me as an uber lag (at least this session). i have had some playback from him and he won a medium pot on another table earlier (cant find HH right now). he kept insisting on playing me OOP though, which I did not mind.

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BTN): $43.40
SB: $31.70
BB: $26.90
CO: $26.45

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with J

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1, BB raises to $3.25, Hero?

Quote

04-09-2010 , 12:27 AM

slayP00N

journeyman

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 222

i 4 bet and tr to get it in here everytime, other then a set your basically 50/50 or even better against most hands

Quote

04-09-2010 , 12:36 AM

Pickled pepperolini

self-banned

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,808

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayP00N

i 4 bet and tr to get it in here everytime, other then a set your basically 50/50 or even better against most hands

We are in pretty decent shape even against a set here.

As slayP00n says, simply get it in! I Wouldnt shove here, but a 4bet to ~$7 is the optimal play here imo.

If he shoves, we call.
If he calls and you don't hit turn, push.
If he calls and you hit turn, bet so he is committed by the river, and get it in on the river.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 02:27 AM

Moritz

journeyman

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 219

Let's look at a 4-Bet Shove.

Just a quick and dirty example.

Villains Calling Range: 88, TT, JJ (or any overpair)

Your equity at SD: 43,7%.

You lose at SD: 2.80
Actual Pot: ca. 5.60

Your required FE: 33,3%

if you get other numbers please try to include rake.

Given your image he might play back vs. you on this board. So any 4-bet might be + EV.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 02:38 AM

Stackajawea

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 5,100

shipping the flop is terrible.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 02:42 AM

slayP00N

journeyman

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 222

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stackajawea

shipping the flop is terrible.

you mean straight shipping or 4 betting and getting it in?

Quote

04-09-2010 , 02:47 AM

Stackajawea

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 5,100

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayP00N

you mean straight shipping or 4 betting and getting it in?

re-raising here is terrible. you're always getting it in badly and eliminating your fold equity altogether unless he has complete air which you can find out much more cheaply by just calling his flop raise.

you don't want to be calling shoves with jack high

Quote

04-09-2010 , 03:11 AM

Comstizzle

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,298

it really depends on the villain. against a player who i think can bluff raise this often i might reraise.

i think against most reg i'm just calling here. ur gonna see a set here alot and it's more +EV to just call with implied odds than get it in vs. a set or maybe TT-QQ or another flush draw.

if you think he can take this line with TT-JJ and fold them i also might reraise. if you think he can take this line with overcard + gutter hands i might also reraise.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 03:19 AM

kidacao

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 5,578

he migh be bluffing with the best hand, so why whoulnt you ship it in here and fold A/K/Q high bluffs?

im getting in here but im interested on what the ones who doesnt agree with me have to say.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 03:20 AM

#10

smmcc260

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 509

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comstizzle

Are we definitely getting implied odds if the flush hits?

Quote

04-09-2010 , 03:27 AM

#11

Peter Harris

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 8,424

It's a paradox - if villain views you as LAGgy they are more likely to call you on a light flop reraise. However, they are less likely to pay you off once the diamond comes (unless you've shown some outrageous bluffs).

If you think villain will pay you off even if a diamond hits, I'd say a call is fine. If you think villain will clam up then there's a case for re-raising the flop here and trying to get it in.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 03:33 AM

#12

GoooN

adept

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 993

They don't play back at you at the micros. It's all your imagination.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 03:34 AM

#13

Stackajawea

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 5,100

hint: if we call villain's flop raise and villain checks the turn, he is almost always c/f.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 04:19 AM

#14

Comstizzle

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,298

if their willing to get it in on the flop with you then they'll prolly be willing to get it in on later streets due to pot commitment, and the fact they range is strong. he's going this with a fairly polarized range and given your laggy nature prolly expects you to play ur draws more aggressively so i think it adds to deception value also.

we're IP and are going to be able to take the pot from his A/K/Q/underpair(he might turn these into bluffs). i don't think he's gonna double barrel these and if he does hes not triple barreling. so he'll have to c/f his bluffs.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 04:24 AM

#15

Moritz

journeyman

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 219

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoooN

They don't play back at you at the micros. It's all your imagination.

I, for example, play back at these guys. Even at lower stakes.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 04:29 AM

#16

sixlegs

adept

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 815

you raising the flop is 3betting not 4betting. anyway, at first i was all for 3betting but giving it a second thought, being that you two have been battling post-flop, there's no reason to push him off of any sort of bluff he's trying to execute here. sets and other hands that are ahead of us are likely coming along if you 3bet, but you're likely to get more value out of them anyway if we do hit on later streets (possibly not a stack, however). call and give him the opportunity to fire again with the air in his range.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 08:19 AM

#17

djrion

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 578

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoooN

They don't play back at you at the micros. It's all your imagination.

biggest LOL yet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moritz

I, for example, play back at these guys. Even at lower stakes.

exactly Moritz. i have people "attempt" to play back at me daily.

edit and yes 3bet, not 4bet. sorry it was late for me.

Last edited by djrion; 04-09-2010 at 08:27 AM.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 08:43 AM

#18

djrion

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 578

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixlegs

you raising the flop is 3betting not 4betting. anyway, at first i was all for 3betting but giving it a second thought, being that you two have been battling post-flop, there's no reason to push him off of any sort of bluff he's trying to execute here. sets and other hands that are ahead of us are likely coming along if you 3bet, but you're likely to get more value out of them anyway if we do hit on later streets (possibly not a stack, however). call and give him the opportunity to fire again with the air in his range.

wow. great post. i agree with everything here except the bold. very interesting thought process otherwise.

it seems call>3bet>shove

calling seems best because we can play slower against the top of his range. it also allows us to let him bluff his the weaker hands. downside is that when we hit, i do not think we make as much dough.

let me add a few more stats, although they are probably irrelevent for such a small sample:

FLOP STATS
39% bet
38% raise

I am pretty sure, that entire 38% has been played back at me (although I can not verify this).

Quote

04-09-2010 , 09:29 AM

#19

Skaplun

adept

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 713

as far as equity goes, dont we have the porential to lose equity on each following street? How are we losing fold equity if we shove? Do we assume that villain is more likely to call a flop shove than a turn raise?
Do we c/f if we dont hit the turn and villain bets?

Quote

04-09-2010 , 11:04 AM

#20

Stackajawea

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 5,100

what you do on the turn depends on if he is capable of continuing on the turn with a bluff or semi-bluff. assume they are not until you are proven otherwise.

Quote

04-09-2010 , 11:15 AM

#21

aggo

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 10,422

your equity vs any reasonable value/semibluff-get-it-in type of hand from villain actually isnt as good as you think. Off the top of my head vs 2p,sets, fds, a9, overpairs you're probably like 37-40% equity. and who knows if wants to get k9o in on the flop with you, thats a read you're tons more able to make than we are.

i'd just call here.

Quote

Post Reply Subscribe

...