Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance 25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance

08-04-2010 , 07:17 PM
BB is 21/17 over 48 hands with a Flop Aggression Factor of 0.00 (6 flops) and a Fold to C-bet of 100% (2 samples).

Full Tilt - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: $27.39
BTN: $34.80
Hero (SB): $46.14
BB: $25.00
UTG: $25.00
MP: $18.39

Hero posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 9 T

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.50, 2 players) 2 T 6
Hero bets $1.00, BB raises to $3.00, Hero ???

Considering his lack of aggression on previous flops... fold? Or since both our ranges are wide... do I call or raise? And if I call/raise... what do we do on the turn?
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-04-2010 , 07:25 PM
flop aggression factor and fold to c bet % are meaningless over that sample.

folding flop is fine.
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-04-2010 , 08:10 PM
All that raising accomplishes is folding out his air, and getting him to continue with hands you beat, and we don't really want to be turning our TP into a bluff, so raising this flop is going to be a pretty big mistake.

Villians value range is extremely narrow, effectively 22 or 66. (I'd expect TT to 3b bvb but it's possible he shows up with TT too some of the time).
When villians rep such a narrow range for value, I think you can justify at least calling one street.

Villians flop bluff-raising range on the other hand is much wider, something like 78s 79s 89s, J9s JQs with the intention of barrelling turns where he picks up more equity (Flush Draw or Straight Draw or hits the gutter).

So when villians range is wider as a bluff, and narrower for value, I like peeling the flop and re-evaluating the Turn.

If the villian is good, he's going to realise you basically have 88, 99 or a pair of Tens, and just fire like every turn and most rivers to get you off your hand, however, villian probably ISN'T good, and is probably going to let you get to showdown most of the time when he misses.

If you think you're going to be barrelled of your hand a lot of the time by this villian, then Folding the flop is by far and away the best line, however, if you think you can get to showdown fairly cheaply, I like peeling the flop. I can't read the hand history and tell you whether or not this villian is the type to fire a lot of 2nd bullets, but you can use your reads at the table to know how he's going play most Turns and Rivers if he missed.

It's kind of a gross spot on the Turn if you check and then he fires, because he could so easily just be firing a picked up SD or FD... But I think folding the turn if he does fire is going to be best...
I just don't think you want to be playing guessing games, and even if he is firing a FD or SD, he's still going to win the pot a decent amount of the time anyway, so I think checking the Turn with the intention of folding is going to be the best line to take in this particular spot.

It's definitely not a huge mistake folding on the flop. However, if you're confident in your post-flop game and know that you're going to make good decisions on later streets and not leak money, then calling flop is good for three reasons:
1. I think you have the best hand a decent amount of the time
2. Villian is going to play his holding pretty face up on the turn and river
3. You're not going to go broke with TPWK for 100bbs

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it's a pretty interesting spot, especially because ranges are going to be so wide BvB.

I think I might get flamed for saying calling flop to fold the turn is pretty weak (I agree), but at the micros I'm not sure we're going to get punished enough for making plays like this which are going to be pretty big mistakes at 200NL+

Last edited by mdb101; 08-04-2010 at 08:11 PM. Reason: spelling
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-04-2010 , 10:50 PM
I think folding it is fine. You could call and re-evaluate but when he bets again when you don't make trips or two pair you will be in the same place but with a bigger bet to call. Plus you're OOP, which sucks obv.

If you do call, you have a lot of good turns to fire on. 9-A are all turns you can bet and fold one pair. If you fold, you build an image that says you can let go of a hand and when you do 3-bet you will get more credit. Either choice affects the blind on blind meta game.

@mdb101 - I disagree that villain's value range is only sets. Blind vs blind raising any top pair here would be normal. It's safe to say that hero would cbet this flop with most hands, not just with top pair. Villain could often be bluff raising this with two overs. The ranges you described are way too narrow I think.
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-04-2010 , 11:48 PM
anybody else usually just fold this pre? as played, given you dont have many hands with him and he hasn't been a maniac, folding flop is fine, but i also don't mind calling this to see how he acts on the turn
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-05-2010 , 03:07 AM
folding flop is fine, or show down alot
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-05-2010 , 03:10 AM
I fold this pre, as played call, he is bluff raising this flop a ton bvb
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-05-2010 , 03:16 AM
I'm calling flop and prob calling a blank turn. If he has 3 barrels in him GG.
Such a dry flop, good to bluffraise IP and people definitely do bvb.
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-05-2010 , 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb101
All that raising accomplishes is folding out his air, and getting him to continue with hands you beat, and we don't really want to be turning our TP into a bluff, so raising this flop is going to be a pretty big mistake.

Villians value range is extremely narrow, effectively 22 or 66. (I'd expect TT to 3b bvb but it's possible he shows up with TT too some of the time).
When villians rep such a narrow range for value, I think you can justify at least calling one street.

Villians flop bluff-raising range on the other hand is much wider, something like 78s 79s 89s, J9s JQs with the intention of barrelling turns where he picks up more equity (Flush Draw or Straight Draw or hits the gutter).

So when villians range is wider as a bluff, and narrower for value, I like peeling the flop and re-evaluating the Turn.

If the villian is good, he's going to realise you basically have 88, 99 or a pair of Tens, and just fire like every turn and most rivers to get you off your hand, however, villian probably ISN'T good, and is probably going to let you get to showdown most of the time when he misses.

If you think you're going to be barrelled of your hand a lot of the time by this villian, then Folding the flop is by far and away the best line, however, if you think you can get to showdown fairly cheaply, I like peeling the flop. I can't read the hand history and tell you whether or not this villian is the type to fire a lot of 2nd bullets, but you can use your reads at the table to know how he's going play most Turns and Rivers if he missed.

It's kind of a gross spot on the Turn if you check and then he fires, because he could so easily just be firing a picked up SD or FD... But I think folding the turn if he does fire is going to be best...
I just don't think you want to be playing guessing games, and even if he is firing a FD or SD, he's still going to win the pot a decent amount of the time anyway, so I think checking the Turn with the intention of folding is going to be the best line to take in this particular spot.

It's definitely not a huge mistake folding on the flop. However, if you're confident in your post-flop game and know that you're going to make good decisions on later streets and not leak money, then calling flop is good for three reasons:
1. I think you have the best hand a decent amount of the time
2. Villian is going to play his holding pretty face up on the turn and river
3. You're not going to go broke with TPWK for 100bbs

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it's a pretty interesting spot, especially because ranges are going to be so wide BvB.

I think I might get flamed for saying calling flop to fold the turn is pretty weak (I agree), but at the micros I'm not sure we're going to get punished enough for making plays like this which are going to be pretty big mistakes at 200NL+
Let's suppose I think villain will can double/triple barrel with draws here, how do you play this?
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-05-2010 , 08:31 AM
Find out how snug villain plays in BB before raising this pf.
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote
08-05-2010 , 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pholios
Find out how snug villain plays in BB before raising this pf.
Villain had a "fold either blind to steal" of 89%... and a fold BB to steal of 80%. Of course, both these numbers are over a small sample size. But that did encourage the raise from me. He wasn't defending a lot of blinds at this point.

Edit: Just went back and reviewed the session... this was the first BvB confrontation with this player. So he did have a chance to be in position for this one.

Last edited by frob23; 08-05-2010 at 01:03 PM.
25nl: SBvBB flop top pair and face resistance Quote

      
m