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25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff 25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff

10-30-2010 , 08:14 PM
Villain is on 4 tables, TAG/LAG/REG - good player.

My image is clean against him I think. TAG, not bluffy.

I thought the turn barrel was mandatory on this card and in this spot. Agreed?

Size was because "I wanted stacks".

Full Tilt - $0.25 NL RUSH - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

LP: $40.23
CO: $19.58
BTN: $95.29
SB: $25.00
Hero (BB): $30.56
UTG: $37.07
UTG+1: $57.74
MP: $9.29
MP+1: $25.34

SB posts SB $0.10, Hero posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 9 9

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to $0.85, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.80, 2 players) 7 5 6
Hero checks, MP+1 bets $1.25, Hero raises to $3.25, MP+1 calls $2.00

Turn: ($8.30, 2 players) A
Hero bets $9.00
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 08:35 PM
I dont get why you bet over pot on the turn. Villain only has $25 which means that after your $9 bet he only has around $12 left (after his call) and the pot will be $26.30 on the river. If you want him to thread with "stacks" you may easily bet less on the turn...probably around $6.

All in all I think I dont like it ... at least from the turn bet size standpoint. Cause no matter what you are trying to rep here (flush or set) you bet way too much. Since the Ace of heart came on the turn this eliminates AhKh from his range so he basically never calls with AxKx on the flop (at least not often; b/c and hoping for a runner runner flush does not strike me as a good idea and I'm sure most players are aware of that). So most of the times he either has the flush already (KhQh and stuff like that) or he has an overpair below an ace which means you can get him off this kind of hands with a $6 or even $5.5 turn bet. And if he had AA he's never gonna fold but thats clear I guess.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that you can bluff cheaper if you want to bluff and save some money.
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 08:39 PM
I berate this 0 out 10 because you don't post reads or stats or explain what we are trying to get him to fold here. Also, a $6 bet is more than enough to threaten stacks.
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenjupp
I dont get why you bet over pot on the turn. Villain only has $25 which means that after your $9 bet he only has around $12 left (after his call) and the pot will be $26.30 on the river. If you want him to thread with "stacks" you may easily bet less on the turn...probably around $6.

All in all I think I dont like it ... at least from the turn bet size standpoint. Cause no matter what you are trying to rep here (flush or set) you bet way too much. Since the Ace of heart came on the turn this eliminates AhKh from his range so he basically never calls with AxKx on the flop (at least not often; b/c and hoping for a runner runner flush does not strike me as a good idea and I'm sure most players are aware of that). So most of the times he either has the flush already (KhQh and stuff like that) or he has an overpair below an ace which means you can get him off this kind of hands with a $6 or even $5.5 turn bet. And if he had AA he's never gonna fold but thats clear I guess.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that you can bluff cheaper if you want to bluff and save some money.

Oh yeah - wtf was I thinking w those maths?
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 08:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lx12
I berate this 0 out 10 because you don't post reads or stats or explain what we are trying to get him to fold here. Also, a $6 bet is more than enough to threaten stacks.
I totally agree with turn sizing.

Reads and stats were sort of posted. I didnt explain my reasoning because I didnt want to bias responses. Reasons on this board vs his range and barreling that turn are also somewhat obvious?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the help. I'll be happy to post them. I thought it might be better if I didnt. To see if anyone else sees what I see.
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by McStackn
I totally agree with turn sizing.

Reads and stats were sort of posted. I didnt explain my reasoning because I didnt want to bias responses. Reasons on this board vs his range and barreling that turn are also somewhat obvious?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the help. I'll be happy to post them. I thought it might be better if I didnt. To see if anyone else sees what I see.
The thing is without reads we don't know if the guy will fold JJ here or even AK otf. *Insert the whole 2+2 mantra about not bluffing fish* etc.

My default line is to call otf and give up when barreled again (depends on turn cbet% obv though)
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 09:01 PM
Another thing that came to mind is that somehow I think that any ace besides the ace of hearts would be better to bluff at. Villain is only b/c the turn with the AhKh or AhQh which is only two combos. So with the turn being a non heart ace you can rep an ace high FD that just caught top pair cause I'm not sure if I would raise a blank FD here. I mean...this board is kinda wet and you dont raise that much that he cant call with 88-AA here (I know you got 99 too) and use his position to see what you are doing on the turn. So probably the one combos that you really wanna c/r here are Th9h, 5h4h and maybe KhQh (hoping your overs are good vs. his 88-JJ).
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messenjupp
Another thing that came to mind is that somehow I think that any ace besides the ace of hearts would be better to bluff at. Villain is only b/c the turn with the AhKh or AhQh which is only two combos. So with the turn being a non heart ace you can rep an ace high FD that just caught top pair cause I'm not sure if I would raise a blank FD here. I mean...this board is kinda wet and you dont raise that much that he cant call with 88-AA here (I know you got 99 too) and use his position to see what you are doing on the turn. So probably the one combos that you really wanna c/r here are Th9h, 5h4h and maybe KhQh (hoping your overs are good vs. his 88-JJ).
I was thinking that too (in hindsight). The Ah is the only bad A to bluff. A thinking reg might call BS to me repping a made FD because I'm not likely going to raise the non nut draw IP. Still there are certainly combo draws in my range in which case the Ah helps me.

Still now he folds TT, JJ, QQ, KK. I don't think this player calls the flop raise with just overcards. In real time I thought, "there has to be so many hands that raise the flop that beat him now, and not many in his range that want to be all in for 100bb anyway."

It seems to me that most 4-tabling 25NL RUSH regs will not put their stacks in facing a TAGs aggression with just a pair. On this flop I can rep all sets, straights, and combo draws ont he flop and the turn will often make things look worse for him. Since I don't usually play 25NL that much the only thing he sees in his HUD is a 14/12 TAG who seldom raises the flop.
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 09:18 PM
My experience is most micro regs will put you on a semibluff draw when you raise on a flop like this and will call you down if the draws don't come in.

As such, I actually think betting $5.50 on the turn and following up with a shove on the river is pretty good against most opponents (fold if raised on turn obviously.) Pretty hard for him to call you down without history with anything but trip aces.

Edit: You can't really represent that the ace hit you, but you can still represent flush draws that made it or made straights/sets on this board, and given that you flatted his raise from the button.
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 09:42 PM
Wow how lucky did u get to turn literally the best card in the deck for you lol. Honestly I think on that card you don't need to overbet, and if you're gonna bluff the flop, like i said, you hit your nut card, so not betting the turn is pretty terrible.

Even if you bet $5 on this turn, there isn't a hand in his range that he has an easy decision with.
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-30-2010 , 11:38 PM
it's not terrible because you at least have some sort of chance to improve, but readless it's just gonna be way better to flat the flop. dislike turn overbet because w.out history it's very unlikely villain will interpret it the way you want him too.
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote
10-31-2010 , 01:07 AM
I think I'd bet the turn smaller with xx/ATC, since his calling and raising range is narrow/strong and there's no real way to get him off most of his flop b/c range simply by betting pot as opposed to 3/4ths. Hope that makes sense and I'm not wrong for thinking so.
25NL RUSH (be)rate my bluff Quote

      
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