Simple question really. Are we better checking this flop or betting. I doubt betting can ever be called a mistake, but we cripple the deck pretty hard.

All villains are small sample, unknowns, but showing loose-bad stats.

Loose-bad types are gonna call to much so I like betting to start to build the pot.

bet always and bet bigger.

edit: with specific reads saying that one of those players is bluff happy when PFR shows weakness then I might check back here, lacking those betting is mandatory.

I like the small bet size when we kill the board - we may convince someone we're scared off the king and they'll shove with pocket tens or 9T.

If your gonna bet, bet bigger imo.
I like a bet to try and get a pot going but its pretty villain dependent, some are gonna float with gutters like always

Wp, maybe a little bigger otf.

Against one opponent I mostly check. Against three, I'm much more inclined to bet.

Your flop bet is probably one of the worst I've seen in a month

really. because i'm pretty sure this guy would get crucified on here if he posted this hh and he checks behind on the flop, there's a 10 on the turn and he gets it in vs QJ. yeah, the board is pretty good for slow playing, but there's also some situations where you trap yourself, and AFAIK the default should be not to slow play. another argument for not slow playing here is there are 3 other players, there can be a straight draw out there v easily and when it hits you are never ever ever getting away and you are never ever ever going to know when it hits.

i probably bet 50% here and check behind 50%. i don't see what's so horrible about betting.

big difference between slow playing having ppl bet into you with worse or slow playing when people clearly either have not much equity in which case even when they hit cards on turns/river u still dont get much $ and u face the risk of getting outdrawn out for cheap or you missed value from regfish who check call 2-3streets instead of bet a worse hand

@ rizeagainst : the point of betting here is mostly because we want to build a pot (get value), not because of the cards that could f@#k us on the turn.

^^ i think you pseudo read my post bro

thanks

I was in the process of writing mine when you posted yours.

I meant sizing. If you aren't betting the flop here you are ******ed.

That's the kind of objective discussion that makes 2+2 such a terrific place.

Ok, so what size would you make the flop bet then and why?

It's not like I have to be worried about how to get stacks in by the river with a SPR OTF of 4-to-1. I can bet half pot on 3 streets and still comfortably get it in on the river.

With half pot bets I'm also not giving correct odds for gutters to chase, but I'm not betting large enough that I don't tempt them to chase. I also get 9-x and PPs to peel the flop some of the time with my smallish bet - these hands are close to drawing dead against me.

I personally don't see a whole lot wrong with my sizing, maybe it could be a touch larger, but betting anywhere bigger than $3.50-4 would be an error imo.

Is this standard for you?
Im in the mindset of always betting my monsters on the flop. I have trouble getting value for my top set vs 1 villian. Maybe I should consider checking flops.....


What about this?.....

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $25.00
BB: $10.00
UTG: $51.82
Hero (UTG+1): $35.86
UTG+2: $26.18
MP1: $15.26
MP2: $25.00
CO: $25.00
BTN: $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG+1 with K K
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.75, 5 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 4 A K (2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, MP1 folds

Final Pot: $1.85
Hero wins $1.76
(Rake: $0.09)

On a dry board it is. What is he going to call you with?

The hand you post is different since a) the board is not dry and b) you have middle set, increasing the chances that he has hit top pair.

sexdotcom that flop is a terrible one to slowplay. He has tons of A-x in his range that we get value from.....if anything not c/betting here is going to set more alarm bells off for villain that c/betting will.

I personally think this is fine.

Terrible players are going to call with weaker hands.
Good players are possibly going to think that it's a weak C-Bet this is afraid of getting checkraised.

Fastplay is the new slowplay

^^^

LOL, i generally agree with this when the board is super coordinated and the villain thinks you are trying to push him off a board just because it's coordinated.

First of all, we should be betting here 100% of the time like you did because

1. We want to build the pot and get it in by the river.
2. Both villains checked and if we check back some stupid hand like TJ gets to see a free card.
3. We should be representing almost 100% of our cbet range. If we are betting with say ATo why aren't we betting with KK? Bluffs + good hands = balance
4. Checking back really makes it obvious if you raise on the turn or river that you we're slowplaying a monster or hit something really good on a turn/river. The goal is not to be obvious but to represent multiple possibilities making it a lot harder for people to put you on an accurate hand range.

Now for the bet sizing part. Let's REALLY THINK about this these types of situations. Say you bet like a wuss and 1/3rd pot it. If any player is competent he's really never calling with a 2 anyway but probably a 9, mid pocket pair or K. Now lets say you 3/4-full pot it, He might potentially fold out the 9 but can still probably call with a K or mid pocket pair. However, if we are consistently betting on all flops here 100% of the time with similar sizing, how is villain to know what we really have? If we do this all the time and he starts giving us less credit do you really think he would still fold a 9?

Most of the money you make is going to come on the flop/turn because people aren't good enough to fold. Sure your goal is to get it in by the river but once you jam the river and never get called have you really won anything extra? There are SOOOOOOOOO many BAD regs out there that believe if they bet too big they are scaring people off hands. These guys bet flop and turn like 1/2 pot-2/3 pot barely and then shove river when they intend to get it in. Really, they are only hurting themselves because they aren't extracting max value from flop/turn and aren't properly building a pot up. And seeing how most bad regs won't call river bets without a super strong hand, why aren't we maximizing on the flop/turn when they can't fold their draws or their pairs?

So now when we look at your current hand, lets be honest here, you only bet like a wuss cause you hit top set. Let's say you are cbetting 3/4 pot every single time in this spot to get folds from all your bluffs you should be cbetting the exact same amount with KK REGARDLESS IF IT'S TOP SET OR NOT. The idea is to represent anything. You start getting tricky when you hit a monster and you are just cutting out your flop/turn value. YES YOU WILL GET FOLDS A LOT AND WILL BE LIKE AW MAN I MISSED VALUE BUT IN REALITY YOU DIDN'T. NOBODY HAD JACK SQUAT!

Listen, I know I'm coming off like an ass but really think about consistency in your hand playing. You really shouldn't be weakening your bet sizing based on hand strength. I will guarantee you that if you bet all flops/turn way bigger (3/4-full pot) with your strong hands your winrate is going to definitely increase due to the amount of increased value you win from the flop/turn. Betting weak like you did is only hurting yourself.

Re: consistency, of course it's an issue against thinking players, but against fish (which these guys are), they don't read anything into bet sizing in relation to hand strength. So rather than trying to play unexploitably by balancing bet sizing, we should be trying to play exploitatively in spots like this.

There are plenty of times when we should think very carefully about bet sizing, and how we want it to manipulate what happens in the hand. There shouldn't be a one-fits-all standardised c/bet size, we should bet what we think is most +Ev.

If anything I'd say adjusting bet sizes is far more important against 90% of villains, than standardising is.

And fwiw, I bet my whole range somewhere between $2.75-4 here. I'm never potting this flop. Give me a different flop texture and my bet sizing and reasons change completely again.