3betting the flop here seems ******ed as hell. Like stupid bad to me.

Flat and c/c turn.

i meant i've been playing the former way

this ldo

and fold river shove?

Flatting and c/c turn is so bad because he shuts down his bluffs anyways after we bet/call flop, and then he gets to freeze up and check back Qx, 99-JJ/87.

wtf he shuts down his bluffs anyways after the flop 3bet right??
and why would he be raising TT-JJ on the flop???

and there's nothing wrong with him checking back Qx, we get a final street of value when we bet the river after he checks the turn.

What I'm saying is once we call flop he's shutting down his bluffs down. So if you are going to c/c no matter what, you might as well get the money in now because:

You lose value from AQ/87
You are OOP and when you are OOP and you have equity it is usually best to get money in now so your RIO go down, while villains IO go down.

If you want to c/c turn and c/f river you should be folding flop, but if you c/c both streets whats the difference bewteen shipping flop?

And yes it does matter that we lose value from AQ.

Wtf... his value range on the flop has us crushed this is Qx like hardly ever. That said his value range is super narrow and bad regs are going to be doing this with a ton of air/semi draws.

We have no reads so it is impossible to say that he "shuts down his bluffs". If you would argue that he does this however then surely we should never 3bet because giving him another chance to bluff is better than shutting bluffs off for him by 3betting the flop?

I don't understand why you think 99-JJ is in his range because he will be c/c these the vast majority of the time. Even if they are in his range 3betting would be even more ******ed because we just fold out a hand we have crushed and can get value from on later streets.

No.

this is not necessarily true at all, we have no reason to believe he does/doesnt shut down as OP says no reads. Even so assuming people always shutdown with bluffs on the turn is kinda naive and not the case.

finally some sense. i am now convinced that 3betting is ******ed except against a total fish, and that flat flop, c/c turn is the best line.

Trust me no villain is bluff raising triple barreling this board, and if that is true then calling a turn bet to fold on the river is horrible.

You are always going to make mistakes OOP just get the money in with decent equity.

Why when his river shoving range is so much stronger than his turn range?

We will not get the money in with decent equity if we 3bet flop.

lol wtf do you realise your statements always contradict themselves???

if no villain is bluff raising triple barreling this board, then exactly the best way to extract value from the bluffer and get away from a monster is to c/c the turn and c/f the river!!!

our strategy to flat flop, c/c turn and c/f river is only exploitable by a bluff raising triple barreler!!!

LOL

You should be getting away from overpairs unless either the villain is getting out of line a lot or you've been getting out of line a lot and expect to be played back at.

You guys should listen to the best player ITT. You know who it is.

I don't understand why AQ or JT would raise this flop. Unless I had seen the villain do it already I think it is terrible to assume he does.

huh who is ITT?

It begins with w and ends with ishiewish

does this mean check/fold the turn?

grunch


why is this a set every single time? his range just ain't limited 2 sets.

Is this not this flop raise/call shove range?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

15,840 games 0.005 secs 3,168,000 games/sec

Board: Qs 9c 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.970% 51.97% 00.00% 8232 0.00 { KcKh }
Hand 1: 48.030% 48.03% 00.00% 7608 0.00 { 99, 66, AQs, JTs, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdQh, AdQs, AhQs }

Phil Galfond says:

TAGs call too much vs ranges of draws and nuts

Fold within turn

Hero bets $1.75, CO raises to $4, Hero raises to $7.50,

[x] ghey raise
[x] dont do it

yes

High Society: If (and thats a bif if) he raises your cbet w/JTs here, he wont be calling a 3b with it, so you cant include it in your stove.

When did he say that? What should we be doing, folding?