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25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? 25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand?

03-11-2010 , 11:25 PM
3betting the flop here seems ******ed as hell. Like stupid bad to me.

Flat and c/c turn.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inspir3d
There seems to be no real consensus in this forum.

Philosophy 1

"So only sets you are worried about is 99 or 66, and probably 66 as some people might 3 bet 99. Most won't, but some will. IMO Push the damn flop when he raises. If he has a set or 2 pair so be it. He'll probably stack you anyway if you check call down. It's like KK vs AA, **** happens."

Philosophy 2

"I'm baffled at how many people think the flop should be 3bet, what are you hoping to get called by that we beat?

If we 3bet he folds out all of his bluffs and semi bluffs(which is pretty much only JT), and even may laydown AQ as we look incredibly strong. And sets shove, great."


I've been playing the latter way pretty much for quite a while now and my bankroll has been totally decimated over the last 30k hands or so. I've dropped like 30 buyins at 50nl/25nl after running my over pairs into sets like 15-20 times, and of course a few set over set and KK vs AA coolers and 2/4 outer suckouts and finally tilt.

I tell you if you play the first way you will get your bankroll totally destroyed when you go on a bad run and it's not bloody funny at all!!! Now i'm dropping down to 10nl where I will have at least 50 buyins and lol this is so ******ed the last time i played 10nl was like 5yrs ago when i first started playing poker.

So - is it really impossible to get away with the overpairs from the sets or do you have to pay off every time???
i meant i've been playing the former way
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spraggy
3betting the flop here seems ******ed as hell. Like stupid bad to me.

Flat and c/c turn.
this ldo
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spraggy
3betting the flop here seems ******ed as hell. Like stupid bad to me.

Flat and c/c turn.
and fold river shove?
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spraggy
3betting the flop here seems ******ed as hell. Like stupid bad to me.

Flat and c/c turn.
Flatting and c/c turn is so bad because he shuts down his bluffs anyways after we bet/call flop, and then he gets to freeze up and check back Qx, 99-JJ/87.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by High_SocietyA9
Flatting and c/c turn is so bad because he shuts down his bluffs anyways after we bet/call flop, and then he gets to freeze up and check back Qx, 99-JJ/87.
wtf he shuts down his bluffs anyways after the flop 3bet right??
and why would he be raising TT-JJ on the flop???

and there's nothing wrong with him checking back Qx, we get a final street of value when we bet the river after he checks the turn.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inspir3d
wtf he shuts down his bluffs anyways after the flop 3bet right??
and why would he be raising TT-JJ on the flop???

and there's nothing wrong with him checking back Qx, we get a final street of value when we bet the river after he checks the turn.
What I'm saying is once we call flop he's shutting down his bluffs down. So if you are going to c/c no matter what, you might as well get the money in now because:

You lose value from AQ/87
You are OOP and when you are OOP and you have equity it is usually best to get money in now so your RIO go down, while villains IO go down.

If you want to c/c turn and c/f river you should be folding flop, but if you c/c both streets whats the difference bewteen shipping flop?

And yes it does matter that we lose value from AQ.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by High_SocietyA9
Flatting and c/c turn is so bad because he shuts down his bluffs anyways after we bet/call flop, and then he gets to freeze up and check back Qx, 99-JJ/87.
Wtf... his value range on the flop has us crushed this is Qx like hardly ever. That said his value range is super narrow and bad regs are going to be doing this with a ton of air/semi draws.

We have no reads so it is impossible to say that he "shuts down his bluffs". If you would argue that he does this however then surely we should never 3bet because giving him another chance to bluff is better than shutting bluffs off for him by 3betting the flop?

I don't understand why you think 99-JJ is in his range because he will be c/c these the vast majority of the time. Even if they are in his range 3betting would be even more ******ed because we just fold out a hand we have crushed and can get value from on later streets.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by High_SocietyA9

If you want to c/c turn and c/f river you should be folding flop

.
No.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by High_SocietyA9
What I'm saying is once we call flop he's shutting down his bluffs down.
this is not necessarily true at all, we have no reason to believe he does/doesnt shut down as OP says no reads. Even so assuming people always shutdown with bluffs on the turn is kinda naive and not the case.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spraggy
Wtf... his value range on the flop has us crushed this is Qx like hardly ever. That said his value range is super narrow and bad regs are going to be doing this with a ton of air/semi draws.

We have no reads so it is impossible to say that he "shuts down his bluffs". If you would argue that he does this however then surely we should never 3bet because giving him another chance to bluff is better than shutting bluffs off for him by 3betting the flop?

I don't understand why you think 99-JJ is in his range because he will be c/c these the vast majority of the time. Even if they are in his range 3betting would be even more ******ed because we just fold out a hand we have crushed and can get value from on later streets.
finally some sense. i am now convinced that 3betting is ******ed except against a total fish, and that flat flop, c/c turn is the best line.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spraggy
Wtf... his value range on the flop has us crushed this is Qx like hardly ever. That said his value range is super narrow and bad regs are going to be doing this with a ton of air/semi draws.

We have no reads so it is impossible to say that he "shuts down his bluffs". If you would argue that he does this however then surely we should never 3bet because giving him another chance to bluff is better than shutting bluffs off for him by 3betting the flop?

I don't understand why you think 99-JJ is in his range because he will be c/c these the vast majority of the time. Even if they are in his range 3betting would be even more ******ed because we just fold out a hand we have crushed and can get value from on later streets.
Trust me no villain is bluff raising triple barreling this board, and if that is true then calling a turn bet to fold on the river is horrible.

You are always going to make mistakes OOP just get the money in with decent equity.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by High_SocietyA9
Trust me no villain is bluff raising triple barreling this board, and if that is true then calling a turn bet to fold on the river is horrible.

You are always going to make mistakes OOP just get the money in with decent equity.
Why when his river shoving range is so much stronger than his turn range?

We will not get the money in with decent equity if we 3bet flop.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by High_SocietyA9
Trust me no villain is bluff raising triple barreling this board, and if that is true then calling a turn bet to fold on the river is horrible.

You are always going to make mistakes OOP just get the money in with decent equity.
lol wtf do you realise your statements always contradict themselves???

if no villain is bluff raising triple barreling this board, then exactly the best way to extract value from the bluffer and get away from a monster is to c/c the turn and c/f the river!!!

our strategy to flat flop, c/c turn and c/f river is only exploitable by a bluff raising triple barreler!!!

LOL
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inspir3d
So - is it really impossible to get away with the overpairs from the sets or do you have to pay off every time???
You should be getting away from overpairs unless either the villain is getting out of line a lot or you've been getting out of line a lot and expect to be played back at.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:55 PM
You guys should listen to the best player ITT. You know who it is.

I don't understand why AQ or JT would raise this flop. Unless I had seen the villain do it already I think it is terrible to assume he does.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-11-2010 , 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fattony7891
You guys should listen to the best player ITT. You know who it is.

I don't understand why AQ or JT would raise this flop. Unless I had seen the villain do it already I think it is terrible to assume he does.
huh who is ITT?
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-12-2010 , 12:02 AM
It begins with w and ends with ishiewish
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-12-2010 , 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wishiewish
call flop raise, fold to further aggression.
does this mean check/fold the turn?
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-12-2010 , 02:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualFriday
this is a set like every single time.

3 betting flop is really bad.



grunch


why is this a set every single time? his range just ain't limited 2 sets.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-12-2010 , 04:52 AM
Is this not this flop raise/call shove range?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

15,840 games 0.005 secs 3,168,000 games/sec

Board: Qs 9c 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.970% 51.97% 00.00% 8232 0.00 { KcKh }
Hand 1: 48.030% 48.03% 00.00% 7608 0.00 { 99, 66, AQs, JTs, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdQh, AdQs, AhQs }

Last edited by High_SocietyA9; 03-12-2010 at 04:52 AM. Reason: 1/2 the combos of AQo even
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-12-2010 , 05:42 AM
Phil Galfond says:

TAGs call too much vs ranges of draws and nuts

Fold within turn
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-12-2010 , 05:46 AM
Hero bets $1.75, CO raises to $4, Hero raises to $7.50,

[x] ghey raise
[x] dont do it
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-12-2010 , 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inspir3d
does this mean check/fold the turn?
yes

High Society: If (and thats a bif if) he raises your cbet w/JTs here, he wont be calling a 3b with it, so you cant include it in your stove.

Last edited by fattony7891; 03-12-2010 at 11:26 AM.
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote
03-12-2010 , 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquadougs
Phil Galfond says:

TAGs call too much vs ranges of draws and nuts

Fold within turn
When did he say that? What should we be doing, folding?
25NL KK is it ever possible to get away from this hand? Quote

      
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