Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $36.30
BB: $47.10
Hero (UTG): $29.70
UTG+1: $25.00
MP1: $12.65
MP2: $10.35
CO: $18.75
BTN: $32.45

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with J J
Hero raises to $0.85, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $1.45, CO calls $1.45, 2 folds, BB calls $1.20, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($5.90) 8 4 2 (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.75, MP2 raises to $8.90 all in, CO folds, BB folds, Hero calls $5.15

Turn: ($23.70) 7 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($23.70) Q (2 players - 1 is all in)

ok so the game was very loose so villans could have wide pre re raise ranges. obv a 4 bet would be good. but i was worried that the re raiser had KK AA. however i didnt think i would be called by worse. however the dead money in the pot now meant that being against AK AQ type hands would have still been highly +EV. I i had to call 0.6 for bout $5 pre flop so it was the choice between turning the hand into a set mining hand pre flop or trying to take the pot down. any thoughts?

dunno about you... but min 3bet from half-stack is heavily weighted towards QQ+. I don't thinks it's AK/AQ nearly enough for leading this flop to be profitable.

I'm probably c/c flop, c/f turn if he shoves...

i think yep his range is more weighted towards QQ+ but this was a loose + bad player, so i still put AK + AQ within his range, and if AK AQ are within his range then probability wise he is a lot more likely to have AK AQ,

The preflop call ist fine.

On the flop he raises all-in against so many guys, I cannot imagine a clearer fold for JJ.

Regards,

If that's the case, why the b/c line on the flop?

I am 4-bet/calling a shove preflop because I don't want to play JJ against 37 people, and you don't have implied odds to call for a set.

His stack size doesn't give much room to set mine, but the dead money does. Besides you're not strictly set mining with jacks in three bet pots. I probably don't donk the flop, let villain bet and see what the other larger stacks are thinking. If it gets back to me heads up vs the half stack I'm shoving.

I agree his range can be lot wider than QQ+.
Some bad shortstackers will push here with any pair/two overcards (AJ+).

I would have def 4 bet pf to isolate him. Sometime he will have KK+ but they can't fold any pair here.

lol lots of different opinions here. i agree that shoving would def be prob the best play since JJ does not play well against 37 people< haha. however i def did have implied odds against a set. because i had to call like 0.6 for 5, against lots of people. so if u need about 10-1 set mining odds. 0.6 for 5 is nearly already enough to cover the cost to hit a set. plus implied odds id be able to win many times 0.6 if he actually has an overpair.

however i was strung between 2 contradicting thoughts. set mining was the safer play and couldn't really go 2 wrong, shoving pre flop with all the dead money makes it hugely +ev even against AK AQ.

i was originally planning to check raise all in if flop didnt come over cards as the 3 bettor is likely to lead AK AQ. however i ended up feeling i needed to protect my hand. so i guess shoving pre flop was prob the best play right?

villan ended up showing 87s so i cried

don't be results oriented. The PF call is fine but once you don't flop a set you have to be ready to fold (especially after a bet and a raise)

not being results orientated but if villans range included sc then a 4 bet pre was by far correct. also i still dont mind c/r all in flop if 3 bettor betsas he could easily have Ak AQ so i actually have a ton of equity in the pot.

One of the misconceptions of set mining, IMO. Who are you mining against? the whole field? You need to consider that the PF aggressor is much more likely to stack off with one pair than PF callers. Someone with 99 on a 852r board is not necessarily going to felt when you have 55 and there is a lot of action. Someone who raised with AA likely will. When considering set-mining, you need to heavily weight your decision with respect to the PF aggressor's stack.

edit: But I guess with the dead money in this case, it probably makes up for it. But in general, you know whut ah'm sayin'.

I think this is a must call on the flop getting over 3.5:1 against a spaz.

I am getting in on this flop, but I don't like the donk bet. PF raiser is going to fire at this flop most of the time, just crai and you get most value from his entire range. By donking, he can fold AJ+ hands that he may think is good to cbet (villians with these stats love to bluff multiway and will commit themselves).

As you can see he ended up committing himself anyways with TPNK and just hit a 5 outer on you. If you can get the money in the middle being a 80% favorite, that is a good thing.

agreed c/r all in was the initial plan if the flop come no over cards as i will get extra value out AJ+ while leading out for 'protection' jus has no real value in terms of getting called by a worser hand.

also although the hand doesnt really classify properly as 'set mining' as im not jus trying to get AA - KK stack off to me. however with 0.6 call for 5.3, effectively most of the time i am gonna c/fold on a ton of flops w overcards to JJ, however because the odds of flopping a set are about 8.5 - 1, if i can win about 10 x 0.6, it is not a bad investment. even if say the flop comes like J 9 2, if i only can get $2 more out of the pot. the initial 'set mine' has achieved its purpose in gaining value.

However as played the flop came undercards which was 2nd best situation that could have happend. in which case c/r shove would be by far the best play