Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair 25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair

05-27-2008 , 09:32 AM
Is my line here ******ed? I'm a newbie so it probably is ******ed! Villain is 34/8/1.5 over only 109 hands but may not be positionally aware as Attempts to Steal is zero. I am short-stacked at $15.30 because I'm learning and I stack off too easily with full stack.

My thinking was: uhoh EP raise, I'll just call with JJ and hope for set or overpair. Keep the pot small and hope to see a showdown cheaply.

Pokerstove has me at 37% against a tight EP range but this guy is 34% VPIP over limited sample so his range may be much wider:
Code:
	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	36.585%  	35.01% 	01.57% 	      20984510 	   940916.00   { JcJh }
Hand 1: 	63.415%  	61.85% 	01.57% 	      37064298 	   940916.00   { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
How should I have played this hand?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $4.30
UTG: $24.40
UTG+1: $29.20
MP1: $29.10
Hero (MP2): $15.30
CO: $4.25
BTN: $25.90
SB: $24.75

Pre-Flop: J J dealt to Hero (MP2)
UTG raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.85) 8 9 6 (2 Players)
UTG bets $1, Hero calls $1

JJ is overpair to flop, maybe he has AK. I thought about reraising to see where I am but maybe I can get to the river cheaper by calling him down as he seems passive.

Turn: ($3.85) 5 (2 Players)
UTG bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

$1.25 to call what will be a $6.35 pot = 20% and I have 37% equity against his range so call.

River: ($6.35) 8 (2 Players)
UTG bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

$1.50 to call what will be a $9.35 pot = 16% and I have 37% equity against his range so I call.

Spoiler:

Results: $9.35 Pot ($0.45 Rake)
UTG showed Ac As (two pair, Aces and Eights) and WON $8.90 (+$4.40 NET)
Hero mucked Jc Jh (two pair, Jacks and Eights) and LOST (-$4.50 NET)
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 09:41 AM
I think your line preflop is fine - its okay to reraise here sometimes but against a guy who only raises 8% of the time I think calling his UTG raise is best.

On the flop I would raise him - he'll define his hand very quickly if you do. I doubt he 3 bets the flop w/ AK, so you can pretty safely muck JJ. Also, raising the flop keeps him from catching an A/K on the turn.

Once you decide to try to get to showdown I think you played the hand well. His bets are so small that you have to call them. One note: you keep mentioning 37% equity, but that was your equity preflop. By the river your equity is up to 43% if you think his range has not changed.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 09:47 AM
I like your line, and I like how you used the concept of pot control here.

The only thing that I might have done differently is to try to make a raise on the turn and take the pot away from him. The 5 on the turn is a scare card to him for his range, so you could easily raise and represent a 7.

But then again, since you are playing a shorter stack than him, he might just call with the overpair. So if you were deeper stacked, then that might be a better option.

As played, I like your line. You are definitely priced in on the turn/river to call those small bets. Since you are shorter stacked, he's only calling a flolp, turn, or river raise with a better pair (or a possible set if he opened UTG with a medium pair).

The only question is whether or not you raise PF, and I think you made the right choice in only calling. 100 hands is not enough to draw any solid conclusions, but the range you put him on is probably pretty accurate.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jawal37
Once you decide to try to get to showdown I think you played the hand well. His bets are so small that you have to call them. One note: you keep mentioning 37% equity, but that was your equity preflop. By the river your equity is up to 43% if you think his range has not changed.
Good point - I totally missed that. My thinking in the hand was his range could be wider so I have more equity than his little bets. I didn't have time to pokerstove the hand during the hand so I'm roughly thinking AK=16 combos, QQ+ = 18 combos, JJ = 1 combos. I'm ahead of 16/34 combos = about half equity. Hence if he bets way less than that I'll call him down.

But after the hand I felt like there must be a better way.

Thks for comments.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WickerMan666
The only thing that I might have done differently is to try to make a raise on the turn and take the pot away from him. The 5 on the turn is a scare card to him for his range, so you could easily raise and represent a 7.

But then again, since you are playing a shorter stack than him, he might just call with the overpair. So if you were deeper stacked, then that might be a better option.
I thought about the 7 and strt but only in term of whether he had a 7. I decided he wouldn't likely have raised with 77 and if he did I had really good equity against 77+. I didn't think of representing a 7 myself with a raise. How big a raise would be credible? 3x?
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:05 AM
What do you think of a river c/r?
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:06 AM
He may also have AQs, TT-88. Do you have something to support the fact that he only raises JJ+ AK? A villain with 8% PFR can raise his mid-pairs and AQs from the UTG.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryLaughs
He may also have AQs, TT-88. Do you have something to support the fact that he only raises JJ+ AK? A villain with 8% PFR can raise his mid-pairs and AQs from the UTG.
No, I only used the tight range to figure I had more than enough equity to call down his small bets. If he raises lighter than I have even better equity.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:10 AM
I think you played it fine, and I don't really think there's much value in raising the turn.
Worse hands are folding (which is basically all hands not containing a 7 and whiffed overs), and no one ever (almost never) folds overpairs at uNL. AA = teh nutz, so when you DO get a monster, you can take advantage of those people who simply can't believe their AA got beat.

OP this line looks really good for a lot of reasons, and I'd play it exactly the same. Don't be results oriented.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryLaughs
He may also have AQs, TT-88. Do you have something to support the fact that he only raises JJ+ AK? A villain with 8% PFR can raise his mid-pairs and AQs from the UTG.
I went back and checked PT and he did raise earlier at the same table with AQo from EP and show it down but at the time in the hand I didn't remember that.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by I vi ii V7

OP this line looks really good for a lot of reasons, and I'd play it exactly the same. Don't be results oriented.
I'm not worried about the result of the hand. I'm only wondering if I could have improved my line against his range. What do you think of raising him PF given that he has shown down a raised AQo from UTG?
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:22 AM
I would start to think that raising the turn is a good idea against some villains here (not sure about this one since I only have the 3 stats you give me). I have seen some desperate villains make his line with AK AQ, TT, 99 betting small and hoping you are on a draw.

Don't let the results get to you.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryLaughs
I would start to think that raising the turn is a good idea against some villains here (not sure about this one since I only have the 3 stats you give me). I have seen some desperate villains make his line with AK AQ, TT, 99 betting small and hoping you are on a draw.
Yeh, I did think his little bets might mean AK but later when I checked PT and found the AQo EP raise hand he didn't bet the flop when he whiffed and then little bet when he turned an Ace.

Given his little bets, doesn't a turn raise risk not getting to showdown if he shoves (as some will do with AK)?
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 10:40 AM
Here's the only other hand I have on Villain from EP at the same table. Does this change your advice?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $40.80
BB: $5
UTG: $23.75
UTG+1: $30.75
UTG+2: $25
Hero (MP1): $5
MP2: $5.45
CO: $3.95
BTN: $23.30

Pre-Flop: J 2 dealt to Hero (MP1)
UTG raises to $0.75, 5 folds, BTN calls $0.75, SB calls $0.65, BB folds

Flop: ($2.50) 6 5 8 (3 Players)
SB checks, UTG checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($2.50) A (3 Players)
SB checks, UTG bets $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, SB folds

River: ($5.50) 6 (2 Players)
UTG bets $1.50, BTN calls $1.50

Results: $8.50 Pot ($0.40 Rake)
UTG showed A Q (two pair, Aces and Sixes) and WON $8.10 (+$4.35 NET)
BTN mucked A 9 (two pair, Aces and Sixes) and LOST (-$3.75 NET)
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 11:05 AM
This is how Villain played AA later at same table (against JJ, too):

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP2: $25
CO: $5.80
BTN: $37.80
SB: $24.10
BB: $27.55
UTG: $5
UTG+1: $31.25
MP1: $24.65

Pre-Flop:
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.85, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.85, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.05) 8 T 2 (2 Players)
MP1 bets $2.05, BTN calls $2.05

Turn: ($6.15) 2 (2 Players)
MP1 bets $6.15, BTN raises to $12.30, MP1 raises to $21.75 and is All-In, BTN calls $9.45

River: ($49.65) 9 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $49.65 Pot ($2.45 Rake)
BTN showed A A (two pair, Aces and Twos) and WON $47.20 (+$22.55 NET)
MP1 showed J J (two pair, Jacks and Twos) and LOST (-$24.65 NET)
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 11:06 AM
Sure, looks like he will make small bets even with a decent hand. Your line in OP looks fine in light of this.

I do have continuation bet% on my HUD and it is often a big help in these situations to distinguish those who c-bet with any two and those that will only raise when they hit.

EDIT: the second example: He looks like a good target for set mining.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-27-2008 , 08:30 PM
That's about done the hand and the Villain to death. Thks to all who commented. I've learnt some stuff and made some good notes on Villain.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-28-2008 , 01:30 AM
villains line does not look that strong to me. I would definitely find a raise on the flop to define/protect my hand. If he 3bets fold.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-28-2008 , 08:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by toymach776
villains line does not look that strong to me. I would definitely find a raise on the flop to define/protect my hand. If he 3bets fold.
How big a reraise? 2x? 3x?
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-29-2008 , 09:33 PM
A point that I don't think anyone mentioned (and I didn't think of before because I'm a newbie) that is bad about OP c/c line holding JJ vs raising the flop to define the hand ASAP is that the passive c/c line risks a scary A, K, or Q on the turn or river (as many as 12 scary cards or approx 45% probability by the river).

So a raise on the flop to $3 would have defined the hand and cost less than OP line ($1 flop + $1.25 turn + $1.50 river= $3.75) and avoided risk of overcards on turn/river, assuming Villain will re-raise or fold in response. On re-raise, Hero folds. On call, Hero folds to any further action.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote
05-29-2008 , 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jawal37
I think your line preflop is fine - its okay to reraise here sometimes but against a guy who only raises 8% of the time I think calling his UTG raise is best.

On the flop I would raise him - he'll define his hand very quickly if you do. I doubt he 3 bets the flop w/ AK, so you can pretty safely muck JJ. Also, raising the flop keeps him from catching an A/K on the turn.

Once you decide to try to get to showdown I think you played the hand well. His bets are so small that you have to call them. One note: you keep mentioning 37% equity, but that was your equity preflop. By the river your equity is up to 43% if you think his range has not changed.
Jawal did mention overcard risk on turn/river.
25NL - JJ facing EP raise and flopping overpair Quote

      
m