Villain is a total unknown with less than 5 hands.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Poker Stars
SB ($25)
BB ($53.42)
UTG ($27.77)
UTG+1 ($46.46)
CO ($38.57)
Hero ($35.71)

Dealt to Hero 8 8

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, BB calls $0.50

FLOP ($1.60) 3 5 8

BB checks, Hero bets $1.25, BB raises to $4.50, Hero raises to $12.50, BB folds

Hero shows 8 8

Hero wins $10.08



While a bluff could be a good part of his range, I figured since he was showing interest in the hand, I was hoping he might have a mid pp over the board or a smaller set and want to get it in on the flop.

Played wayyyyy to fast for that flop. You have announced you have a monster with horns and trumpets.

Here's his thinking; when you raise PF, your range is a standard steal range. SC's, Ace babies, Q-middle x, Kx, Ax, and any PP.

This flop completely whiffs almost all of your range. When he raises you on the flop, he is saying, I don't believe you, I have a hand like 86, OESD, air, etc. and you're just doing the standard c-bet which every villain even in the micros has come to expect.

When you 3x his raise, you have completely polarized your range. You are now saying either "you're right, I have AJ and I don't know how to find a fold button" or "I haz top set / top 2", whereas if you call flop and either call or 1/2 pot on turn, you are saying "I haz good hand with some equity but you might still be able to value bet me with TPGK, TT, or else push me off my hand with a good bluff card".

Hmmm tl;dr. You folded out all the hands you beat, and are only getting shoved from 85.

I know it was terrible, but it's 3am and I'm not quite firing on all cylinders. Anyway, I think a large part of it was that I was playing that way based on my table image (hyper-LAG) and a lot of the regs at the tables were calling me lighter or coming after me with reraises, so I was used to getting action at that table. Of course this means nothing to a guy who just sat down 3 hands ago.

just call his x/r, keep his bluffs and worse hands in. if he has a smaller set the money will go in anyways.

I think I'm just paranoid because I always used to slowplay sets until something nasty like a 4 card straight or flush was on board and then never get them paid off, so now I'm always looking to get the money in before the cooler comes. That said, the board is super dry after all, and if I wasn't in lag/spew mode, I would have probably played it as suggested.

nh. Overal you are slightly deep so slowplaying can not be very good against unknown. I would just 3bet to 10~ maybe 9.75 not to scare him off completely if he has an overpair, 66,77 or 67s. If this unknown happens to be a decent reg, you will probably rarely stack him on this board OTF. Only set over set imo.

Hey.. You cannot get into unknow's head, so sorry, but IMO all this stuff is BS.

I tend to agree. A lot of the time I think we just project how we'd play onto them, which is rarely accurate. I just generally assume that unknowns play fairly straightforward until they give me reason to suspect otherwise. That's one reason why I'd assume he's less likely to be bluffing here, but that isn't necessarily accurate either.

Players think differently and IMO projecting your thoughts to villain is just plain wrong. And agree that c/r advocates strength, so IMO, especially 140bb deep, there is no point slowing down when you cannot possibly accurately assess his range.

Don't like this at all. This board is too dry to be raising here. Its true we can't get into a unknowns head, but that doesn't mean we can't play in a manner that extracts more from him if he happens to be a reg or a passive fish alike.

The guy is likely donking overpairs, underpairs, and good pf hands that missed from experience against the general player pool here.

Underpairs and good pf hands you want to give a chance to catch up or fire again ( if he's that way inclined) so flatting>>raising against these, and if you think he has an overpair like TT, raise but alot smaller than $10 as you'll blow him off it, around $3.5-$4 is about right imo. Btw flatting isn't terrible just not optimal vs overpairs here in general.

By frequency of being delt the hands, lowpairs and air are much more likely than overpairs here and as calling works fine against overpairs, I think as a general strategy calling>raising as its more effective against his range as a whole.

The board needs to be alot wetter and alot more likely to hit him before i'm raising here, Something like 88 on K78 would be a raise as a draw coming in could kill your action vs KQ etc and giving a free card to QJ or 99 is not going to improve them enougth where they'll want to play with us while we're still ahead. Also the average player is alot less likely to fire again with the King out there with undercards or underpairs as a king high board is more likely to hit your perceived range than an 8 high board here.

Interesting. "and if you think he has an overpair like TT, raise but alot smaller than $10 as you'll blow him off it, around $3.5-$4 is about right imo." You mean to 8-8.5? like this one. but when only calling, are we really going to get more value? remember this is not 100bb, this is 140bb.

I actually ment making it around $4 total, but looking at the stacks now I agree a larger raise is better. I think $5 is the lowest we should raise as if we play $5 total otf, turn pot is 11.6, assume we bet $8.5 we now have around 21.5 in a pot of 28.6. The thing is villain is really going to have to co-opperate getting stacks in here for this to work. So the only times your going to get this against a player who has a clue is when they have 33 or 55 which we would stack just as easily with a turn raise given there's no turn card that could scare them. Even over pairs may fold given how fast we're playing this, I would rather get two streets of value in against the rest of his possible range and give the rest a chance to catch up before I raise.

Also turn overcards don't compleatly kill our action vs overpairs. I doubt TT will just c/f on a Q turn here, it'll probally bet/fold or check call.

EDIT: wow, i've compleatly misread the hand up to now, I somehow missed the flop c/r and thought it was a donk followed by a raise from hero??!? Think alot of my points still apply though, other than what I said about raise sizes.

def just flatting the c/r here. raising a lot of the time on turns, possibly waiting til the river.

^u guys talking about villain having TT as if not such a tiny part of his range. there's so much more hand combos in his range, and even still against TT a 3b would be bad imo

lol you guys are right and that's not the way I think. Was just trying to talk out what is basically lvl3 thought; what does he think you have? When you raise over the top on his check/raise, you are not getting called by anything that isn't going to be just as likely to get the money in after the flop. If you flat-call, he may be willing to barrel off again or flat-call a bet on the turn if he checks.

Even if he's not a thinking opponent capable of putting you on a reasonable range of hands, he's either a lvl 1.5 opponent who will see the amount of money you're trying to shove into the pot and get scared, or else he's a drooler and the money will get there anyways.

I just don't see any reason to raise over the top here. I know no reason as to why it would be more +ev than a smooth call.