25nl completely lost with tp+flush draw - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

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25nl completely lost with tp+flush draw

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01-23-2008 , 11:47 AM

Hebel

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,506

villain is 70/17/3.5, and is a complete maniac. He got his stack flopping a straight with 63o against AA and by calling a shove with mid pair vs. oesfd and holding. I am completely lost here on the turn.

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $15.50
UTG: $82.25
CO: $21.75
BTN: $22.35
Hero (SB): $24.90

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with T

UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.15, BB checks

Flop: ($0.75) 3

(3 players)
Hero bets $0.75, BB folds, UTG raises to $3, Hero calls $2.25

Turn: ($6.75) Q

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $9, [color=red]Hero?

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01-23-2008 , 11:48 AM

simonpoker

old hand

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,296

I'd make it 8 on flop and call a shove but as played shove on turn.

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01-23-2008 , 11:58 AM

kroeliewoelie

adept

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,101

simonpoker why do you wanna get it in this fast against a known maniac? The reason to stick it in with a 12-15 outer on the flop against good players is that you have some fold equity + close to a coinflip if called. Since this guy hasn't shown much folding ability, we are probably left with the flipping part. Is that what we want or do we want to keep the pot small as long as we didn't hit?

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01-23-2008 , 12:51 PM

Pudding

newbie

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 49

Based on the fact he's a maniac, I'd be thinking that I'm probably ahead here with the pair of queens. I think maybe he's got a set of queens, AA-KK or two pair, but not likely, most likely he's got a diamond flush draw (or pretending to) based on his play.

I'd call the $9, I think you have too much equity in this pot to fold here, but I wouldn't raise, I don't want to build this pot just in case I'm wrong. If he was a tighter player, I'd consider folding, but likely call and pray.

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01-23-2008 , 12:55 PM

sean457j

adept

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,005

If the villain doesn't slow down with the appearance of a possible flush, the call on the flop is fine. I'm shoving the turn, you have a read to justify this action. You still have outs if this time he's turned up with a set, anything but shoving may be a little off.

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01-23-2008 , 01:01 PM

whizzle

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 584

based on the read i'm shoving this turn. I hate to 3b only flushdraws... The main thing about doing so is based of FE and we have 0

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01-23-2008 , 01:02 PM

sean457j

adept

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pudding

but likely call and pray.

Calling, with the plan to check fold the river against a maniac is a bad idea. We have 14 outs to 2pair/flush/trips on the river (around 28% chance), and we are calling nine dollars to win an absolute maximum of $28.40.

We would need to win a minimum of $32.15 to make this neutral EV.

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01-23-2008 , 01:09 PM

orlov

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 7,176

I call here and then c/rai any river.

Shoving here is also good i guess, but he will fold his pure bluffs and cant bluff them again on the river.

Lets him bluff one more time, and if you said he called a shove with mid pair, tpgk is so far ahead of his calling range that its not even nice.

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01-23-2008 , 01:26 PM

Genesis

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,217

I just push the turn. If villain has any kind of draw he'll call, and very likely most pairs due to pot size. I'm not giving him a chance to showdown a weak pair cheaply, which he may do because your turn call shows serious strength - he overbet the pot and you called so he's probably not thinking you're on a draw very often.

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01-23-2008 , 02:14 PM

#10

Pudding

newbie

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean457j

I'm interested in knowing your reasoning, because I may have a leak here. Your calculation is based strictly on odds, but we also know this guy plays a lot of pots, and I doubt he has anything in the 2 pairs/trips range, it's the flush draw that I'd put him on.

I have no intention of check-folding this guy. I'm committing myself here, with the hopes of keeping the pot small. If he has 2 pairs/flush/trips so be it, I just don't think he has it. I think I have him beat already, provided there's no diamond on the river.

Am I in the wrong here?

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01-23-2008 , 02:16 PM

#11

andy099

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,320

shove flop, shove turn, woteva

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01-23-2008 , 02:23 PM

#12

simonpoker

old hand

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,296

Quote:

Originally Posted by kroeliewoelie

since its pretty right to get it in on flop esp. if his a maniac.why?because we are at flip against him and he might have nothing or very little to raise us so we probably have lots of FE plus we might be folding best hand on future streets if we don't get the odds.

Obviously if we are IP this becomes an easy call.

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01-23-2008 , 02:27 PM

#13

Josh!

grinder

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 536

Yeah, shove the turn. Basically the only hands you're worried about (AA, KK, AQ, KQ) and if he's as big a maniac as he sounds, he's not showing up with those very often. Even against the Mount Everest peak of his range you still have all kinds outs and you're probably ahead already a lot of the time. Get it in.

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01-23-2008 , 02:41 PM

#14

sean457j

adept

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pudding

If you put him on a FD/2pair/set, then calling to see the river is basically giving him the chance to fold if he misses.

In the end you want the money in when you are ahead/he is chasing. If you don't plan to fold if he bets out on the river then you are best off getting it in sooner as oppose to later against the range you have given him.

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01-23-2008 , 02:52 PM

#15

cboevey

centurion

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 127

If the guy calls shoves with mid-pair, shove the turn for sure. You will commit half your stack by just calling and this allows villian to play the river perfectly (check fold if on a fd and misses). I would say you are definitly ahead on the turn and it would be correct to get the money in.

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01-23-2008 , 03:29 PM

#16

EV87

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,266

Shove the turn for value, and if you're behind, just river a spade.

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01-23-2008 , 03:53 PM

#17

CQB

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28

SHOVE...he's too big a maniac to fold...calling I dunno why to do that, just put it allin

You're very likely ahead

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01-23-2008 , 04:18 PM

#18

Phoenix Rising

adept

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,137

I think crai on the turn is the best play versus this type of opponent. A 70/20/3.5 player is one that's going to take just about every hand in their range on boards like this too far. The turn overbet from a maniac doesn't = good hand just because of the bet size. It's entirely likely he's raising any pair on the flop and just betting 'to bet'. Versus such a crazy player it's going to be pretty hard for me to fold TPMK + FD, esp. because we have a redraw versus his entire range besides Kxs Axs

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